View Full Version : Ethanol: counterproductive?
shitty wok
2007-03-07, 01:39
This is a follow up to: http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum2/HTML/001801.html
George Bush has frequently mentioned ethanol as an effective solution to the America's energy and environmental woe. In fact, Brazil and the United States (the two largest producers of ethanol) are going to meet in (the over-urbanized shit-hole of) Sao Paulo to discuss increasing ethanol production. The ideology in ethanol producing countries is the we can switch from petro to bio-fuels in a snap. This is terribly misleading. For one, at current rates of consumption we will not have nearly enough fuel. This is because the arable land we have devoted to ethanol production cannot produce enough of the fuel. If we wanted to expand agricultural production, this would mean more pesticides, herbicides and fertilizer. All of these are oil-based. That leads to an energy net loss in corn-based ethanol production. And on the subject of Brazil: countless acres of already threatened rainforest will need to be cleared for more ethanol production. Alas, that will send more CO2 into the atmosphere. Does this mean back to the drawing board for renewable fuels?
[This message has been edited by shitty wok (edited 03-07-2007).]
ArgonPlasma2000
2007-03-07, 02:18
I believe so in the case of corn ethanol. There are other plants which can produce ethanol which dont require anywhere near as much fertilizer, though, so ethanol are a whole isnt entirely futile.
Still, biodiesel is very promising and already nets an energy gain. Not only does it burn with almost as much energy as petrodiesel, it also burns much cleaner and provides much better lubrication for the engine parts.
I need to do some research into how much energy is used in its production, though, and how much can be extracted from a given volume of plant matter.
this doesn't solve any enviromental problems. if you have a properly tuned car you will emit the same amount of carbon dioxide no matter which fuel you use (petrol, lpg (you guys call it something odd, like autogas), diesel, biodiesel, ethanol).
this is good when considering peak oil and all that, and may lead to cheaper transport, but is not a long term solution if the goal is to cut emmisions.
ArgonPlasma2000
2007-03-07, 03:47
No net carbon is emmited if you burn biofuels. The amount of time between the growth of the vegetable and burning of the fuel is the problem, though.
The point is that there are carbon emmisions, but since it the vegetable you processed to get it was only planted three months ago, the impact to the environment is negligible.
Contrast this with burning wood and petroleum.
The long term goal is no emmisions, but there is no point in using biofuels as a crutch as long as you arent raping the earth it grows on because its not hurting the earth any worse than what we use now.
ArmsMerchant
2007-03-09, 20:55
Ethanol is a joke, but is irresistable to simple minds such as the Shrubs.
For one thing, growing the corn uses a lot of energy in itself--not to mention a lot of fresh water--much of which is irreplaceable water from the midwest aquifers.
If everyone would simply inflate their tires properly, we would save more gasoline than would be saved if the entire US corn crop were converted to ethanol.
as i said in the other ethanol thread and the peak oil thread
1. Corn ethanol usually doesn't break even in terms of energy and other ethanol products have a very low EROEI.
2. Yields are not that great really for an acre. So to get a sizeable % amount of fuel you would need to convert most of the worlds agriculture land to just growing fuel.
3. Your turning food into fuel and with a growing world population, expaning economies (in double figures in places like china and india), soil erosion and aquifier depletion. You have to ask the question what is more important feeding or fueling the world.
Also your not actually combating the problem, rather than building ethanol production plants we should be improving mass transit systems, building more efficient cars and reducing our energy consumption in other areas that can be made much more easily
So how about marijuana? How well does it produce ethanol? It grow easily and quickly enough.
quote:Originally posted by Obbe:
So how about marijuana? How well does it produce ethanol? It grow easily and quickly enough.
there would be fuck all sugar in it, so youll get nothing out of it.
quote:Originally posted by RAOVQ:
there would be fuck all sugar in it, so youll get nothing out of it.
DAMN!
Wait....
why aren't they using grapes or something?
grapes are one idea, but require a shitload of water and a nice climate and soil.
grains and vegetables like corn and potato are the cheapest and most economical way to get sugars like this. it really depends on the climate and what grows best in the enviroment.
Real.PUA
2007-03-11, 06:42
We already make shitloads of high fructose corn syrup and put it in everything, I wonder how much ethanol we could get if we diverted all cornsyrup.
MasterPython
2007-03-11, 07:22
quote:Originally posted by Obbe:
DAMN!
Wait....
why aren't they using grapes or something?
http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/corn/
Same reason there is corn in everything else.
quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:
We already make shitloads of ethanol and put it in our cars, I wonder how many starving people we could feed from the corn if we diverted all corn away from ethanol.
the problem is not a lack of food. there is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone very nicely.
the issue is the distribution of it. half the world eats too much, the other half doesn't eat enough. food is wasted, dumped and destroyed in huge quantities for the dollar.
poverty is not an issue of scarcity, it is an issue of greed.
quote:Originally posted by RAOVQ:
the problem is not a lack of food. there is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone very nicely.
the issue is the distribution of it. half the world eats too much, the other half doesn't eat enough. food is wasted, dumped and destroyed in huge quantities for the dollar.
poverty is not an issue of scarcity, it is an issue of greed.
yeah but we have 4 billion people in the developing world wanting to live like us whether we like it or not.
quote:Originally posted by RAOVQ:
grapes are one idea, but require a shitload of water and a nice climate and soil.
grains and vegetables like corn and potato are the cheapest and most economical way to get sugars like this. it really depends on the climate and what grows best in the enviroment.
Sounds good for BC then, they already have lots of wineries.
StealthyRacoons
2007-03-12, 08:50
Sugar cane or sugar beats.
I read somewhere that if we converted all of the land in the USA to ethanol production (including rooftops ect) that it would only alleviate 8-10% of the worlds oil consumption. If someone knows where this is coming from, please post a link, because I cant remember where it came from
quote:Originally posted by HELP ME:
I read somewhere that if we converted all of the land in the USA to ethanol production (including rooftops ect) that it would only alleviate 8-10% of the worlds oil consumption. If someone knows where this is coming from, please post a link, because I cant remember where it came from
t'is true
http://www1.umn.edu/umnnews/Feature_Stories/Ethanol_fuel_presents_a_cornundrum.html http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/biofuels.html http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003271.html
most put it that all US corn production to ethanol would only take a little over 10% of US gasoline consumption.
Infernal
2007-03-14, 12:12
I'm sorry, did someone just say Brazil is looking at ethanol as fuel again?
What? Didn't they learn from the time in the 1980s where they used it and learnt how expensive that shit was the hard way, plunging them into huge public debts which still remains today?
Can coal be converted to automotive fuel? Just a thought, because there sure as shit isn't a shortage of coal around here.
buttthrax
2007-03-14, 19:27
quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:
Ethanol is a joke, but is irresistable to simple minds such as the Shrubs.
Yeah its one of those jokes where Brazil runs their whole fucking country on it. You idiot old man.
quote:Originally posted by Rocko:
Can coal be converted to automotive fuel? Just a thought, because there sure as shit isn't a shortage of coal around here.
It can in a coal to liquids process. But it's expensive both in terms of money and energy so has a very low EROEI which is crucial in all these things
Real.PUA
2007-03-14, 22:19
The net energy gain isnt important if your source is abundant. Whta really matters is the final cost.
quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:
The net energy gain isnt important if your source is abundant. Whta really matters is the final cost.
the Net energy gain is very important it is impossible to have a reduction in the energy supply in a exponential growth economy, you would cause a massive world wide recession and depression.
And in comparison to oil/coal/gas, ethanol is not abundant.
MasterPython
2007-03-15, 18:20
quote:Originally posted by Infernal:
I'm sorry, did someone just say Brazil is looking at ethanol as fuel again?
Did they ever stop? They can grow shitloads of sugar cane there so it is not a waste of time like using corn. They pay world prices on oil there so it has probably been cheaper than gas since the oil crisis.