Interesting Thought on Omnipotence

[jsaxton14]

I just had the most profound thought: To accept the notion of omnipotence, one must completely reject logic itself. The reasoning behind this statement is simple. The definition of omnipotence is essentially "the ability to do anything." Thus, if one can do anything, one should be able to reconcile that which cannot be logically reconciled. If that which cannot be logically reconciled IS reconcilable (as those who believe in an omniscient god must accept), then logic is flawed and must be rejected.

One cannot simultaneously accept logic and an omnipotent god.

[Twisted_Ferret]

I like. Nothing much to add, just didn't want this to go unnoticed.

[Digital_Savior]

I do not fully understand the migratory patterns of the Minke whale. Utilizing your epiphany, I suppose they don't have a migratory pattern, or a cause for it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[Merlinman2005]

what no!!



Stupid ass.

[Adrenochrome]

A lot of philosophers have come to the conclusion that in order to be a Christian you have to abandon logic, so the crazy fuckers did.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I do not fully understand the migratory patterns of the Minke whale. Utilizing your epiphany, I suppose they don't have a migratory pattern, or a cause for it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

There is a difference between my conclusion and your conclusion. Your conclusion is based on your own ignorance. My conclusion is based on knowledge.

I'll break it into steps to make it more clear for everyone.

1: God, by definition, is omnipotent (he can do anything.

2: As God can do anything, he can reconcile that which is logically irreconcilable (God can make A > B and A < B simultaneously, for example).

3: If that which is logically irreconcilable CAN be reconciled (which it can be, if a truly omnipotent god exists), then logic is flawed.

4: Thus, either:

-logic is flawed

-an omnipotent god does not exist

An omnipotent god and logic cannot coexist. It is irrational to accept both. You must reject one or the other.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

what no!!



Stupid ass.

Why am I a "Stupid ass?"

[Velio]

the process you use to reject logic seems completely and utterly logical http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[Aseren]

What a bunch of bullshit. First you say, that God is omnipotent, then you say that she can't co-exist with logic. Do you see the stupidity here?

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

What a bunch of bullshit.

What bit of logic is bullshit? I've broken my proof into steps; which step is wrong?

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

First you say, that God is omnipotent, then you say that she can't co-exist with logic. Do you see the stupidity here?

Yeah, I do. That's why I posted this. I feel I have demonstrated that the notion of omnipotence (and therefore god) is completely ridiculous. Prove me wrong.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Velio:

the process you use to reject logic seems completely and utterly logical http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I don't know if this is sarcastic or not.

I am rejecting god, not logic.

[Aseren]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Yeah, I do. That's why I posted this. I feel I have demonstrated that the notion of omnipotence (and therefore god) is completely ridiculous. Prove me wrong.

I just did, get some glasses. Step 1 refutes EVERYTHING else.

[truckfixr]

Originally posted by jsaxton14:

quote:...1: God, by definition, is omnipotent (he can do anything.

2: As God can do anything, he can reconcile that which is logically irreconcilable (God can make A > B and A < B simultaneously, for example).

3: If that which is logically irreconcilable CAN be reconciled (which it can be, if a truly omnipotent god exists), then logic is flawed.

4: Thus, either:

-logic is flawed

-an omnipotent god does not exist

An omnipotent god and logic cannot coexist. It is irrational to accept both. You must reject one or the other.



If premise 1) were true, your conclusion would be incorrect. Being omnipotent, A>B and A<B could coexist simultaneously. Omnipotence would require his being able to make the illogical= logical without necessarilly making logical=illogical. Thus a truly omnipotent God could defy logic without being illogical while doing so.

The problem with the premise is that there is zero emperical evidence to support the existance of a God, and even less to support the possibility of the existance of omnipotence.



Logic> Superstition.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 05-21-2006).]

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

I just did, get some glasses. Step 1 refutes EVERYTHING else.

You're obviously completely missing the point of my post, and I'm afraid a simple pair of glasses won't fix your problem. I am simply demonstrating that the notion of omnipotence is, by definition, illogical and ridiculous. Why then, do you think that applying the the definition of omnipotence shatters my argument?

You have simply demonstrated your own ignorance. You have refuted nothing.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

If premise 1) were true, your conclusion would be incorrect. Being omnipotent, A>B and A<B could coexist simultaneously. Omnipotence would require his being able to make the illogical= logical without necessarilly making logical=illogical. Thus a truly omnipotent God could defy logic without being illogical while doing so.

Let's assume God could make A > B and B > A simultaneously. Our current understanding of logic states that this is illogical. If God were to make A > B and B > A and have it be logical, God would have to apply a different definition of logic. This is why I feel it is irrational to accept both our current understanding of logic and an omnipotent god.

I hope that clears that up.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

The problem with the premise is that there is zero emperical evidence to support the existance of a God, and even less to support the possibility of the existance of omnipotence.



Logic> Superstition.

Agreed.

[truckfixr]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:



Let's assume God could make A > B and B > A simultaneously. Our current understanding of logic states that this is illogical. If God were to make A > B and B > A and have it be logical, God would have to apply a different definition of logic. This is why I feel it is irrational to accept both our current understanding of logic and an omnipotent god.

I hope that clears that up.

That's the problem with omnipotence. If God were truly omnipotent,no limitations could be placed on His abilities. Thus,through his omnipotence, He could make the illogical logical and make it fit our current definition of logic. Therefor, logic would not necessarily be flawed.

The point is, omnipotence is an irrational, paradoxical concept. Not an attainable ability. Is it rational to believe that omnipotence exists as anything more than a concept? Is it logical to believe that A>B and A<B can exist simultaneously? Is it logical to believe that the irreconcilable can be reconciled? Is it logical to believe in a God with illogical attributes? Of course not.

Perhaps the argument against omnipotence would be better presented in another way:

1)A) = any given value or object.

2)B) = any given value or object other than A.

3)Logic dictates that B can never be A. (fact)

4)For omnipotence to be possible, B would have to be able to be A.

5)Since B can never be A (fact), omnipotence cannot logically exist.



I agree with you completly that "it is irrational to accept both our current understanding of logic and an omnipotent god."

I'll choose logic over superstition any day.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 05-23-2006).]

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Perhaps the argument against omnipotence would be better presented in another way:

1)A) = any given value or object.

2)B) = any given value or object other than A.

3)Logic dictates that B can never be A. (fact)

4)For omnipotence to be possible, B would have to be able to be A.

5)Since B can never be A (fact), omnipotence cannot logically exist.

I like that. It's far more eloquent and convincing than my proof.

[Conflict of Harmony]

Wow, great thought. Another awesome argument that those religious lunatics have no answer to! Good Job!

[Abrahim]

quote:Originally posted by Conflict of Harmony:

Wow, great thought. Another awesome argument that those religious lunatics have no answer to! Good Job!

Educated Christian Answer:

If God is capable of all things, God is capable of having multiple realities which the logic of this reality would not apply.

Does God have the option of making decisions? If so God is capable of choosing one option which includes what you know as logic and does not include in your reality what you feel is not logic.

Must be rejected?

[JesuitArtiste]

I was thinking the other day that if God has infinite power, yet this is spread over an infinite space. Does this cancel it out?

What I mean is in an infinite universe ,where even supposing that there is no matter or energy outside of it there is still empty space , would an infinite energy be able to fill it ,and still have an effect.

I'm unsure how clear that is ,or how well thought out it is . This isn't well thought off ,this is basically coming off the top off my head.

But ... If ,assuming that infinity could act as a number , we divided gods infinite power by the infinite space ,we should get one.... So A=gods power B=Space . A/B=1 (I'm unsure if this is mathmatically sound ... not sure how infinity would act against it self.)

Now what the frick does THAT mean? Shit ,I'm not even sure where this is going .... but ... god does not ,mathematically (And shamfully rough at that) ,seem to have any superfluous energy. It seems to balance itself out ... Let me think of this more ...

Well... any people who are a little more mathematically aware than me ... fix that ... Find units maybe ... tell me what 1 means ....

*sighs* Here's another half attempt for you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[Abrahim]

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

I was thinking the other day that if God has infinite power, yet this is spread over an infinite space. Does this cancel it out?

What I mean is in an infinite universe ,where even supposing that there is no matter or energy outside of it there is still empty space , would an infinite energy be able to fill it ,and still have an effect.

I'm unsure how clear that is ,or how well thought out it is . This isn't well thought off ,this is basically coming off the top off my head.

But ... If ,assuming that infinity could act as a number , we divided gods infinite power by the infinite space ,we should get one.... So A=gods power B=Space . A/B=1 (I'm unsure if this is mathmatically sound ... not sure how infinity would act against it self.)

Now what the frick does THAT mean? Shit ,I'm not even sure where this is going .... but ... god does not ,mathematically (And shamfully rough at that) ,seem to have any superfluous energy. It seems to balance itself out ... Let me think of this more ...

Well... any people who are a little more mathematically aware than me ... fix that ... Find units maybe ... tell me what 1 means ....

*sighs* Here's another half attempt for you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The Infinate space(s) and Realities are within Ultimate Reality and that is God. Everything within is made of God, dependant on God, and all that.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Educated Christian Answer:

If God is capable of all things, God is capable of having multiple realities which the logic of this reality would not apply.

I just woke up, but there is an obvious rebuttal to that: if God is omnipotent, he should be able to reconcile the illogical in my reality too. Multiple realities are not needed, if he is truly omnipotent.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Does God have the option of making decisions?

If he is omnipotent, yes. If he already knows his own future, no. Since he is both omnipotent and omniscient, we arrive at another glaring contradiction in the definition of God.

Once you realize the whole notion of a God is beyond false, that the whole notion of a God is patently ridiculous, questions like that become really easy.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If so God is capable of choosing one option which includes what you know as logic and does not include in your reality what you feel is not logic.

Must be rejected?

Like I already said, a truly omnipotent god could reconcile logical contradictions in my reality. Yes, if you believe in that god you need to reject conventional logic.

[jsaxton14]

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

What I mean is in an infinite universe ,where even supposing that there is no matter or energy outside of it there is still empty space , would an infinite energy be able to fill it ,and still have an effect.

Actually, our current understanding of the universe states that:

-the universe is finite

-There is nothing outside of the universe. No dimensions, nothing.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

But ... If ,assuming that infinity could act as a number , we divided gods infinite power by the infinite space ,we should get one.... So A=gods power B=Space . A/B=1 (I'm unsure if this is mathmatically sound ... not sure how infinity would act against it self.)

Infinity isn't a counting number, persay, it's a mathematical concept. You can't perform the typical mathematical operations of addition, subtraction, etc. on it.

[This message has been edited by jsaxton14 (edited 06-01-2006).]

[JesuitArtiste]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Infinity isn't a counting number, persay, it's a mathematical concept. You can't perform the typical mathematical operations of addition, subtraction, etc. on it.

I realize it's not an actual number ,But i was wandering that if used against itself would it be the equivalent of a number? For example would it work like substituting infinity with 1?

quote:Actually, our current understanding of the universe states that:

-the universe is finite

-There is nothing outside of the universe. No dimensions, nothing.

Anyway, given the universe is finite, you could probably place some limitations on God. IE: God can't make infinitely big objects, etc.

This is pretty much what I was getting at. I know that the universe itself doesn't stretch on infinitely , but there is an infinite amount of emty space. How could there not be? If there is nothing outside of our something there must be an infinite amount ... I can't comprehend that there would ever be an end, what would be at this end? A wall? A sign? What would stop us diggin this wall or going past this sign...

But if there is only so much universe and god has infinite powers ,then there should be an infinite universe , god can do it ,there would be no point in restricting himself ...

Sorry this isn't clearer ,I'm a little hurried right now.

Have A Nice Day.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[jsaxton14]

Regarding infinity/infinity, such an operation isn't permitted. If it were, the result would not be 1.

infinity=m

3*m=infinity=n

m/n=1/3?

m=infinity^2=infinity

n=infinity

m/n = infinity?

I am not a physicist, so I don't really understand what happens on the boundary of the universe. That question would best be directed to mad scientists.

If god were to create an infinite Universe, every possible scenario conceivable would happen. Maybe that's why he made the Universe finite?

Interesting thoughts.

[Lou Reed]

[QUOTE] originally posted by jsaxton14:

[B]Regarding infinity/infinity, such an operation isn't permitted. If it were, the result would not be 1.

Infinity=m

3*m=infinity=n

M/n=1/3?

Lou:

God and maths are on separate plains.

Humans made math,

God made.............

Said,

"Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Aseren:

I just did, get some glasses. Step 1 refutes EVERYTHING else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're obviously completely missing the point of my post, and I'm afraid a simple pair of glasses won't fix your problem. I am simply demonstrating that the notion of omnipotence is, by definition, illogical and ridiculous. Why then, do you think that applying the definition of omnipotence shatters my argument?

You have simply demonstrated your own ignorance. You have refuted no......



jsaxton14

Regular posted 05-22-2006 03:24

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by truckfixr:

If premise 1) were true, your conclusion would be incorrect. Being omnipotent, A>B and A<B could coexist simultaneously. Omnipotence would require his being able to make the illogical= logical without necessarily making logical=illogical. Thus a truly omnipotent God could defy logic without being illogical while doing so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's assume God could make A > B and B > A simultaneously. Our current understanding of logic states that this is illogical. If God were to make A > B and B > A and have it be logical, God would have to apply a different definition of logic. This is why I feel it is irrational to accept both our current understanding of logic and an omnipotent god.

I hope that clears that up.



Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by truckfixr:

The problem with the premise is that there is zero emperical evidence to support the existence of a God, and even less to support the possibility of the existence of omnipotence.

Logic> Superstition.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed.



You basically ended the debate by agreeing with some one that your point is FINISHED/CONCLUDED/ENDED and there between the two of you it is truth. However,

You are incorrect because,

You have avoided the possibility of belonging to any particular religion and have stated that you proclaim truth where as truth is continues due to time,

Due to our existence and your point being that,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jsaxton14:

[B]Regarding infinity/infinity, such an operation isn't permitted. If it were, the result would not be 1.

infinity=m

3*m=infinity=n

m/n=1/3?

Lou:

God and maths are on separate plains.

Humans made math,

God made.............

said,

"Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Aseren:

I just did, get some glasses. Step 1 refutes EVERYTHING else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're obviously completely missing the point of my post, and I'm afraid a simple pair of glasses won't fix your problem. I am simply demonstrating that the notion of omnipotence is, by definition, illogical and ridiculous. Why then, do you think that applying the the definition of omnipotence shatters my argument?

You have simply demonstrated your own ignorance. You have refuted no......



jsaxton14

Regular posted 05-22-2006 03:24

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by truckfixr:

If premise 1) were true, your conclusion would be incorrect. Being omnipotent, A>B and A<B could coexist simultaneously. Omnipotence would require his being able to make the illogical= logical without necessarily making logical=illogical. Thus a truly omnipotent God could defy logic without being illogical while doing so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's assume God could make A > B and B > A simultaneously. Our current understanding of logic states that this is illogical. If God were to make A > B and B > A and have it be logical, God would have to apply a different definition of logic. This is why I feel it is irrational to accept both our current understanding of logic and an omnipotent god.

I hope that clears that up.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by truckfixr:

The problem with the premise is that there is zero emperical evidence to support the existence of a God, and even less to support the possibility of the existence of omnipotence.

Logic> Superstition.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed.



Not by me as the universe is yet to be defined as a whole object and God being absolute in its creation has achieved a definitive object in my opinion.

???????????????????????????????

This has been ended before by superior debaters,

I included……



[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 06-01-2006).]

[JesuitArtiste]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Regarding infinity/infinity, such an operation isn't permitted. If it were, the result would not be 1.

infinity=m

3*m=infinity=n

m/n=1/3?

m=infinity^2=infinity

n=infinity

m/n = infinity?

I am not a physicist, so I don't really understand what happens on the boundary of the universe. That question would best be directed to mad scientists.

If god were to create an infinite Universe, every possible scenario conceivable would happen. Maybe that's why he made the Universe finite?

Interesting thoughts.



Hmmm... That does seem a little more like it ... Now I think about it ....

But infinity as a result? I'm trying to think what that would mean. If we compare it to toast and jam. The universe is an infinitely large piece of toast... and god's power is jam, an infinite amount of Jam.... The Jam will always cover the toast ,but ...

No, bad analogy.

I'm trying to think what an infinite amount of space leads to in respect to gods power... Of course ,I'm sure mega-god-mode would help ,but I've forgot the console command ...

God then is like aether? In all points of the universe... umm... there would then be a set amount to gods power as much as the space it could occupy? ... no... that would lead back to infinity ... which I don't know what that means ...

Well ... in a finite amount of space there is a finite amount of stuff or non-stuff (A presence or an absence)... Would gods power then be finite in a finite space? ... urrrmmm... Or is there an infinite amount of nothing in a space with nothing in it ...

Oh well ,That line of thought seems to have left me .... Not entirely sure What this has to do with anything either....

[This message has been edited by JesuitArtiste (edited 06-01-2006).]

[truckfixr]

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

[QUOTE] originally posted by jsaxton14:

Regarding infinity/infinity, such an operation isn't permitted. If it were...

...Not by me as the universe is yet to be defined as a whole object and God being absolute in its creation has achieved a definitive object in my opinion.

???????????????????????????????

This has been ended before by superior debaters,

I included……



Lou, I am interested in listening to your perspective, but can make little sense of your post as presented. Please repost your argument in a more coherent fashion for the benefit of the inferior debaters among us.