If you are looking for facts to prove God's existence... [Archive]

Twisted_Ferret

2006-08-27, 05:47

quote:Originally posted by anonymouslyaware:

Not everyone needs 100% evidence to believe something.

This is, sadly, very true. It's like we're a bunch of monkeys or something.

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

I think he would want you to follow him because you believe he exists; you've faith in his existence and his word.

So wait, he'd want us to be irrational and intellectually lazy rather than use the powers of reason that differentiate us from mere animals?

Besides, if he'd provide some evidence I could still have plenty of faith. I don't know anything; I merely have faith that things will continue to work as they seemed to have in the past. If He would reveal Himself, or even just give a sign, I would have faith that, well, He is who He says He is. I would read His Word daily and faithfully and meditate on the meanings therein; I would faithfully follow His commandments; I would have faith that He truly is God: All Good, All Powerful, and All Knowing. Just give me a reason and I would be the devoutest, most faithful man on Earth!

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 08-27-2006).]

Real.PUA

2006-08-27, 06:13

A lack of evidence actually SUPPORTS the theory for which the evidence is lacking. That some logic you got going for you...

How would you even presume to know what god wants, when you agree that he has provided no evidence for his existence? I take it you subscribe to one of the holy books, well you obviously think god had a hand in its creation. And if you're a christian, you believe christ was resurrected and all that jazz. God actually did prove his existence under that belief system.

Of course, all we have today is a story with no supporting evidence, but if you are to have FAITH in the story (believe it anyway), then you have faith that god actually did prove his existence at one point.

Inti

2006-08-27, 06:35

quote:Originally posted by J.R. "Bob" Dobbs:

You don't use your mind to think about your religion.

anthra22

2006-08-27, 07:23

Religion was just something ppl created because they couldn't explain things, they couldn't explain y thunderstorms happened, or y ppl got sick, so they concluded god was behind it. we still have things that we can't explain and until we are able to explain them ppl will believe in a god.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-27, 07:26

quote:Originally posted by anonymouslyaware:

Not everyone, unlike you, needs 100% evidence to believe something. It's called Faith for a reason.

Exactly!

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

A lack of evidence actually SUPPORTS the theory for which the evidence is lacking. That some logic you got going for you...

How would you even presume to know what god wants, when you agree that he has provided no evidence for his existence? I take it you subscribe to one of the holy books, well you obviously think god had a hand in its creation. And if you're a christian, you believe christ was resurrected and all that jazz. God actually did prove his existence under that belief system.

Of course, all we have today is a story with no supporting evidence, but if you are to have FAITH in the story (believe it anyway), then you have faith that god actually did prove his existence at one point.

Smart. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK you're right.

anonymouslyaware

2006-08-27, 07:29

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

Smart. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK you're right.

Yeah, I think he's right as well.

Martini

2006-08-27, 09:56

quote:Originally posted by anonymouslyaware

Not everyone, unlike you, needs 100% evidence to believe something. It's called Faith for a reason.

I don't need 100% evidence to believe something; I need strong evidence to believe something. It's called rationality for a reason.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Ironically all those religions claim to be Monotheistic.

So what? That doesn't answer my question.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA

A lack of evidence actually SUPPORTS the theory for which the evidence is lacking.

Wow! A lack of evidence is THE OPPOSITE of support for a theory.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA

How would you even presume to know what god wants, when you agree that he has provided no evidence for his existence?

Exactly!

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA

God actually did prove his existence under that belief system.

If God proved his existence it would no longer be called a belief system.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA

Of course, all we have today is a story with no supporting evidence, but if you are to have FAITH in the story (believe it anyway), then you have faith that god actually did prove his existence at one point.

Ridiculous circular reasoning.

The_Big_Beef

2006-08-27, 11:56

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA

A lack of evidence actually SUPPORTS the theory for which the evidence is lacking.

quote:Originally posted by Martini

Wow! A lack of evidence is THE OPPOSITE of support for a theory.

Ummm... i think when he said that he was being sarcastic, as i hope you were too.

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-27, 11:57

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

You are a fool. Never should you call me stupid when you are the one stating your belief as the same as the statement I just called the reason why God wouldn't aloow their to be any factual or logical evidence. As anonymuslyaware just stated,...

Hey, let's make a deal, I'll only call you stupid when you act like a moron, stupid.

I asked you why we should need faith. And you say because otherwise we wouldn't need faith? That doesn't answer the question.

quote: Such is the reason why God wouldn't let evidence exist. It'd be pointless to have faith.

Why should we need faith?

Faith is the opposite of reason.

Rust

2006-08-27, 13:23

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

What do you guys think?

I think you have absolutely no clue if god prefers belief without evidence over belief with evidence. This isn't a self-evident truth, this is mere speculation.

I also think that you cling to this hope ( that faith is preferred over proof) in the vain hope that it supports your theistic beliefs, however, when it comes down to real life you conveniently do away with it.

P.S. If I'm wrong about this last part, then I have some magic beans for sale; I don't have any evidence to show that they are indeed magical beans of course, but I trust you'll believe me with faith - god would not want it any other way!

Spl1t

2006-08-27, 13:53

Interesting points, but.... I didn't blind myself to one religion, but instead looked at many. How can you possibly believe that you are right when muslims believe they are completely right, christians believe they are completely right, jews believe they are.... you get my point. Everyone thinks they're right, but honestly, if you think about it, there is no right and wrong, only different views, different perspectives on a situation. They all have the same core belief, but we get mixed up when speaking of prophets and what not. My belief lies in the Entheogenical aspect, with a core belief in a supreme being as well, but through Entheogens, we are able to "experience" God, because he is within us all, but I'm open to anything. This could change, and I wouldn't be so ignorant as to fully dedicate my beliefs to one thing, nor should anyone. It's time to break away from tradition and learn for ourselves and not be happy with the answer I always seemed to get from my CCD teacher when I was younger, "We've always done it this way, it's tradition and what we believe in". Well I'm sorry, but I want answers, not "Tradition".

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-27, 14:39

quote:Originally posted by Spl1t:

, if you think about it, there is no right and wrong, only different views, different perspectives on a situation.

No. Actually some people are right and some are wrong.

Jesus can't be both divine and not divine.

Graemy

2006-08-27, 15:32

^That only works when there is physical evidence. and since there is none, there is only different views. how can you tell which one is right and which one is wrong? you can't.

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-27, 16:34

No. What's true and what isn't is independent of our knowledge.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-27, 18:47

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

Hey, let's make a deal, I'll only call you stupid when you act like a moron, stupid.

I asked you why we should need faith. And you say because otherwise we wouldn't need faith? That doesn't answer the question.

No, you idiot. Pay attention. If something is factually correct, then there is no blind belief or trust in it being correct. But if there is no proof, then you would either have to have faith in it being correct or have disbelief due to it not proving itself correct.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I think you have absolutely no clue if god prefers belief without evidence over belief with evidence. This isn't a self-evident truth, this is mere speculation.

I also think that you cling to this hope ( that faith is preferred over proof) in the vain hope that it supports your theistic beliefs, however, when it comes down to real life you conveniently do away with it.

P.S. If I'm wrong about this last part, then I have some magic beans for sale; I don't have any evidence to show that they are indeed magical beans of course, but I trust you'll believe me with faith - god would not want it any other way!

First of all, this IS speculation. I am not calling it fact.

Secondly, I do believe and hope that faith will bring me where I want to be. As to real life though, I do not "do away" with it.

Last of all, no I don't want your beans. God doesn't support asshole moderators who judge others based off of their questioning; moreso exploitation of his name for profit. SHAME.

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-27, 19:07

quote:No, you idiot. Pay attention. If something is factually correct, then there is no blind belief or trust in it being correct. But if there is no proof, then you would either have to have faith in it being correct or have disbelief due to it not proving itself correct.

Yeah, I pretty much figured that if we have evidence we don't need faith. In fact, that's kind of integral to my argument. Guess you missed that.

Now, here's the problem (the one that makes me think you're a cretinous waste of oxygen):

You need to explain why we should have to make do with faith.

I believe I've asked for an answer to this gaping hole in your argument twice now, but you conveniently failed to take the point up.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-27, 19:17

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

Yeah, I pretty much figured that if we have evidence we don't need faith. In fact, that's kind of integral to my argument. Guess you missed that.

Now, here's the problem (the one that makes me think you're a cretinous waste of oxygen):

You need to explain why we should have to make do with faith.

I believe I've asked for an answer to this gaping hole in your argument twice now, but you conveniently failed to take the point up.

Cute thought. I've no reason to avoid your question. You need to calm down. Still speculation though. I think if He gave us anymore than faith, then it would lead to people believing in his words and existence due to whatever evidence he left us instead of believing what he says BECAUSE he said it.

Sloppily worded, but I hope you all understood that.

Twisted_Ferret

2006-08-27, 20:36

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

Cute thought. I've no reason to avoid your question. You need to calm down. Still speculation though. I think if He gave us anymore than faith, then it would lead to people believing in his words and existence due to whatever evidence he left us instead of believing what he says BECAUSE he said it.

That's nonsense. He'd rather us believe something for which there is no evidence because he said it even though there is no evidence that he ever actually said it? Why is this better? If He gave us any more than faith, then we would see that He is God and believe what He said because He's God and He said it... which is basically the same thing you claim he wants, only with more rationality behind it.

Rust

2006-08-27, 20:46

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

First of all, this IS speculation. I am not calling it fact.

I didn't say you were calling it a fact, I'm merely trying to make it even more obvious than it already is, that it is baseless speculation.

quote:

Secondly, I do believe and hope that faith will bring me where I want to be. As to real life though, I do not "do away" with it.

Obviously you do, as exemplified by your refusal to buy my magical beans. You want evidence and proof before you invest time and resources on things. Do you buy a car without proof or a guarantee that it will run? Of course not. Yet when it comes to investing time on your god, you're willing to remove these requirements of evidence and proof because if you do not do so, you'd have no baseless belief in the first place.

quote:

Last of all, no I don't want your beans. God doesn't support asshole moderators who judge others based off of their questioning; moreso exploitation of his name for profit. SHAME.

He also doesn't support you calling me an asshole, specially when I haven't insulted you.

Also, I wasn't exploiting his name for profit, because I never once said that these beans were associated with God, Jesus, or any other Christian icon. I guess god frowns upon proper reading as well... or is that just your own personal short comming?

Rust

2006-08-27, 21:06

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

I think if He gave us anymore than faith, then it would lead to people believing in his words and existence due to whatever evidence he left us instead of believing what he says BECAUSE he said it.

We would first have to need evidence he said something in order to then believe in that something because he said it. Unless you're suggesting I believe that god said something without any evidence suggesting that he did...

Lou Reed

2006-08-27, 21:31

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

omg how profound!

kurdt318

2006-08-27, 22:41

God is just a tale people told kids because they couldn't explain something. So as our technology expands we'll start to know more things then ever making "god" disapear completely dismantling religion. Basically what anthra 22 said.

[This message has been edited by kurdt318 (edited 08-27-2006).]

IanBoyd3

2006-08-27, 23:37

I have asked christians many times to explain why faith makes one worthy of being saved and I have never gotten a single answer.

In my opinion, for some people, they want to feel like they are better then other people, other races, other religions, and so they emphasize that

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 00:38

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

That's nonsense. He'd rather us believe something for which there is no evidence because he said it even though there is no evidence that he ever actually said it? Why is this better? If He gave us any more than faith, then we would see that He is God and believe what He said because He's God and He said it... which is basically the same thing you claim he wants, only with more rationality behind it.

Oh boy. My statement must be worded as sloppy as I thought, because what I intended to say was exactly what you said.

quote:Obviously you do, as exemplified by your refusal to buy my magical beans. You want evidence and proof before you invest time and resources on things. Do you buy a car without proof or a guarantee that it will run? Of course not. Yet when it comes to investing time on your god, you're willing to remove these requirements of evidence and proof because if you do not do so, you'd have no baseless belief in the first place.

I've no faith in you or your word. I've faith in God. If his book told me that the one who goes by Rust had beans filled with magic, I'd believe it. Sounds a little mindless, but it's whatever.

quote:He also doesn't support you calling me an asshole, specially when I haven't insulted you.

Also, I wasn't exploiting his name for profit, because I never once said that these beans were associated with God, Jesus, or any other Christian icon. I guess god frowns upon proper reading as well... or is that just your own personal short comming?

Your sarcasm insults me. Do not come at me like I am a fool. Just a kid wondering what others with sense think of my speculation.

As for the exploitation thing, you are correct. Touche.

Martini

2006-08-28, 00:41

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona

If his book told me that the one who goes by Rust had beans filled with magic, I'd believe it.

If you're going by faith, how do you know which book to follow?

Interest

2006-08-28, 00:50

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I have asked christians many times to explain why faith makes one worthy of being saved and I have never gotten a single answer.

In my opinion, for some people, they want to feel like they are better then other people, other races, other religions, and so they emphasize that

I can try to give a response -

First I have to qualify what I'm going to say -

If there is an almighty creator then He has set the rules and standards for who He lets in His house. We are no different - there are certain people we just will not associate with -(as a side discussion - why is that?)

Part of His soverign choice is to remain unseen by human eyes and unheard by human ears. This is because of the "tests" we must endure to reveal our true hearts and minds. It seems we were banished from God's presence for a reason. It was disobediance. Because disobediance is basically what sin is - God can not be present - or basically where imperfection is - perfection can not be. Where darkness is light can not be - I hope that is clear logical sense for the scientists among us.

Why is faith required?

People do good things with or without faith. It is fact. People do bad things with or without faith. It is fact.

We will not be judged by the weight of our goods in contrast to our bads - that isn't how it works. In fact, God has basically said - there isn't enough good things you can do to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

WHy? Jesus said, "you must be born again in spirit." Some people do not understand the contrast between spirutal good and evil. Some people don't understand the underlying motives of man. The great divide between good and evil is bridged by Jesus. It is by following Jesus to God how we inherit the Kingdom. Faith is not blind acceptance of nothing proven - many times the bible says people put their faith in Jesus while He was standing right in front of them performing miracles.

Faith is a state of being - of being directed by the Holy Spirit - faith is listening for the still quiet voice of God on our hearts.

To sum it up - Jesus said - How can we be trusted with a lot if we can not even be trusted with a little. (not verbatum but the message is the same) The bottom line is if we can't do it here in the now - (be obediant to God) Then how can we be obediant then in His presence? For those that have never heard or have heard and rejected it could be a very frightening thing to see God in the real..I mean I will probably crap in my spiritual pants when the day comes...

Living by faith is the ultimate test of the inheritence of Heaven. Without faith there is no salvation - I'm not saying how you will be judged - I'm just saying it is not possible to live a life obediant to God if you don't even believe God exists. It just won't make any sense to you....

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 01:10

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I can try to give a response -

First I have to qualify what I'm going to say -

If there is an almighty creator then He has set the rules and standards for who He lets in His house. We are no different - there are certain people we just will not associate with -(as a side discussion - why is that?)

Part of His soverign choice is to remain unseen by human eyes and unheard by human ears. This is because of the "tests" we must endure to reveal our true hearts and minds. It seems we were banished from God's presence for a reason. It was disobediance. Because disobediance is basically what sin is - God can not be present - or basically where imperfection is - perfection can not be. Where darkness is light can not be - I hope that is clear logical sense for the scientists among us.

Why is faith required?

People do good things with or without faith. It is fact. People do bad things with or without faith. It is fact.

We will not be judged by the weight of our goods in contrast to our bads - that isn't how it works. In fact, God has basically said - there isn't enough good things you can do to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

WHy? Jesus said, "you must be born again in spirit." Some people do not understand the contrast between spirutal good and evil. Some people don't understand the underlying motives of man. The great divide between good and evil is bridged by Jesus. It is by following Jesus to God how we inherit the Kingdom. Faith is not blind acceptance of nothing proven - many times the bible says people put their faith in Jesus while He was standing right in front of them performing miracles.

Faith is a state of being - of being directed by the Holy Spirit - faith is listening for the still quiet voice of God on our hearts.

To sum it up - Jesus said - How can we be trusted with a lot if we can not even be trusted with a little. (not verbatum but the message is the same) The bottom line is if we can't do it here in the now - (be obediant to God) Then how can we be obediant then in His presence? For those that have never heard or have heard and rejected it could be a very frightening thing to see God in the real..I mean I will probably crap in my spiritual pants when the day comes...

Living by faith is the ultimate test of the inheritence of Heaven. Without faith there is no salvation - I'm not saying how you will be judged - I'm just saying it is not possible to live a life obediant to God if you don't even believe God exists. It just won't make any sense to you....

'Zactly.

Martini

2006-08-28, 01:11

Are you going to answer my question, pyroniccorona?

Rust

2006-08-28, 01:30

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

I've no faith in you or your word. I've faith in God. If his book told me that the one who goes by Rust had beans filled with magic, I'd believe it. Sounds a little mindless, but it's whatever.

That proves my point wonderfully. You lose the reasonable requirement of proof and evidence the moment it hinders your theistic beliefs. When it comes to other aspects of life, you require proof and evidence; it is only when evidence gets in the way of your theistic beliefs that you conviniently decide to do away with its burden.

quote:

Your sarcasm insults me. Do not come at me like I am a fool. Just a kid wondering what others with sense think of my speculation.

So my sacarsm, which had the ultimate goal of presenting a harmless point, insults you just as much as being called an asshole? I doubt that very much.

But you're right, if my sarcasm does insult you, then I'm sure the Christian god would be most proud of you calling me an asshole in that case! My point has definately been refuted!

P.S. Please answer my other post. If you're in the process of doing so, then disregard this post script.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:04

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Are you going to answer my question, pyroniccorona?

Sorry I missed that. I've been raised on the New Testament, but I just started reading the old, and I've a question. The God in the OT is one and the same with the NT, right?

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:09

Correct. But if you're going by faith, how do you know you shouldn't actually be following the Quran, or some other religion's holy book(s).

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:12

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

We would first have to need evidence he said something in order to then believe in that something because he said it. Unless you're suggesting I believe that god said something without any evidence suggesting that he did...

I don't think I understand what you are saying. But if it means what I think, then I've a question. The Bible is supposed to be God's words, but it was written by man, right?

quote:That proves my point wonderfully. You lose the reasonable requirement of proof and evidence the moment it hinders your theistic beliefs. When it comes to other aspects of life, you require proof and evidence; it is only when evidence gets in the way of your theistic beliefs that you conviniently decide to do away with its burden.

I've blind faith in nothing but God. His word is what I should be following. If evidence showed that he didn't exist, we'll then I wouldn't follow.

quote:So my sacarsm, which had the ultimate goal of presenting a harmless point, insults you just as much as being called an asshole? I doubt that very much.

But you're right, if my sarcasm does insult you, then I'm sure the Christian god would be most proud of you calling me an asshole in that case! My point has definately been refuted!

P.S. Please answer my other post. If you're in the process of doing so, then disregard this post script.

Yes, it did insult me. And I'm sure calling you an asshole wasn't justified. Teach me about my questions, not my sins.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:14

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Correct. But if you're going by faith, how do you know you shouldn't actually be following the Quran, or some other religion's holy book(s).

See, that's the thing. I'm not SURE what I have been taught by, which is the Bible, was correct but I believe so. Tis why I'm exploring the OT and opinions & documents of others. To solidify my belief.

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:16

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona

If evidence showed that he didn't exist, we'll then I wouldn't follow.

Do you believe in everything that hasn't been proved not to exist? No one has proved that flying pigs don't exist in underground tunnels under Hawaii, so I'm assuming that you beleive that they do?

Rust

2006-08-28, 02:22

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

I don't think I understand what you are saying. But if it means what I think, then I've a question. The Bible is supposed to be God's words, but it was written by man, right?

You said that if he gave us evidence, people would believe what he said because of the evidence, not because he said it.

But in order believe something because he said it, we need to have evidence he said it in the first place! If we don't have evidence, then we don't know who said it!

Case in point, I can claim that god said "pyroniccorona, you're wrong, Rust is right". Do you believe that based on faith? If you do then you're wrong. If you don't, then you require evidence to believe something in the first place - you would have failed in believing something because he said it!

As for your question, that's what Christians believe, yes.

quote:

I've blind faith in nothing but God. His word is what I should be following. If evidence showed that he didn't exist, we'll then I wouldn't follow.

This only supports what I've said. You require evidence and proof for everything in your life except when it inconveniences your theistic beliefs; as soon as it is a problem to your belief in gods (since you have no evidence to substantiate that baseless position) then you conveniently do away with the reasonable position of demanding evidence.

quote:

Yes, it did insult me. And I'm sure calling you an asshole wasn't justified. Teach me about my questions, not my sins.

Great, then I've made my point.

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:23

quote:originally posted by pyroniccorona

See, that's the thing. I'm not SURE what I have been taught by, which is the Bible, was correct but I believe so. Tis why I'm exploring the OT and opinions & documents of others.

Why do you believe so?

quote:originally posted by pyroniccorona

To solidify my belief.

You're already going into learning more without a skeptical attitude, which is part of a rational way to judge if what you're learning is the real deal or not. Actually, if you were going to be skeptical, you would be looking at all the facts first before believing anything.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:23

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Do you believe in everything that hasn't been proved not to exist? No one has proved that flying pigs don't exist in underground tunnels under Hawaii, so I'm assuming that you beleive that they do?

-_- again with the sarcasm.

NEVER have I said I believe in EVERYTHING that hasn't been proved not to exist. But I do God. And I believe there are forces in this world that we've yet to detect. And other stuff.

[This message has been edited by pyroniccorona (edited 08-28-2006).]

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:27

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona

NEVER have I said I believe in EVERYTHING that hasn't been proved not to exist. But I do God.

Why do you believe in God based on faith, until He is proven not to exist, but not other things?

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:29

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Wht do you believe in God based on faith, until He is proven not to exist, but not other things?

I THINK God exists. I DON'T think flying pigs do.

But on another note, I wonder some more. Is it because of my determination to be correct? Or is it part of a fear or Hell instilled in me in my early days? Or is it because I agree with alot of his words? I'm not too sure myself; and yet, I continue to believe.

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:31

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You said that if he gave us evidence, people would believe what he said because of the evidence, not because he said it.

But in order believe something because he said it, we need to have evidence he said it in the first place! If we don't have evidence, then we don't know who said it!

Case in point, I can claim that god said "pyroniccorona, you're wrong, Rust is right". Do you believe that based on faith? If you do then you're wrong. If you don't, then you require evidence to believe something in the first place - you would have failed in believing something because he said it!

As for your question, that's what Christians believe, yes.

So is your point to show that I've faith that He did indeed speak the words in The Bible?

Rust

2006-08-28, 02:40

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

So is your point to show that I've faith that He did indeed speak the words in The Bible?

No, my point is to show that we cannot do what you suggest without first knowing whether or not he said something, which in turn requires evidence, not a lack of it.

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:42

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona

But on another note, I wonder some more. Is it because of my determination to be correct? Or is it part of a fear or Hell instilled in me in my early days? Or is it because I agree with alot of his words? I'm not too sure myself; and yet, I continue to believe.

I'm glad you're asking those questions. It most likely is a combination of all of the above. It is quite human to believe in gods, which is why almost all societies have made up gods or other mystical/supernatural things to explain things. It's quite natural to believe all sorts of weird things, but the scientific method of thinking has brought us light years beyond where we were in just a few hundred years.

Here are some books you may want to check out. I'm sure you'll both enjoy them and learn alot:

http://tinyurl.com/kc5u8

http://tinyurl.com/f9dbr

http://tinyurl.com/eo5ze

Zinkovich

2006-08-28, 02:43

pyroniccea: Why would God need our faith in any way, shape or form?

To go further, in order for God to NEED something, to act out of a desire to get something, he would have to be incomplete or incapacitated without it, or have a subjective need for it. If God is just as subject to emotional needs as we are, how can you call him a perfect god?

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 02:49

First of all, thank you Martini. I shall read and hope to enjoy such.

quote:No, my point is to show that we cannot do what you suggest without first knowing whether or not he said something, which in turn requires evidence, not a lack of it.

All I suggested was that people stop looking for solid evidence.

quote:Originally posted by Zinkovich:

pyroniccea: Why would God need our faith in any way, shape or form?

To go further, in order for God to NEED something, to act out of a desire to get something, he would have to be incomplete or incapacitated without it, or have a subjective need for it. If God is just as subject to emotional needs as we are, how can you call him a perfect god?

Zink, never have I said God NEEDS our faith. I will say that I believe he accepts our faith.

Martini

2006-08-28, 02:52

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona

All I suggested was that people stop looking for solid evidence.

How about a reasonable amount of strong evidence?

Zinkovich

2006-08-28, 02:58

To quote you earlier pyroniccorona:

quote:Such is the reason why God wouldn't let evidence exist. It'd be pointless to have faith.

So, to restate:

Why is God motivated to make faith "not pointless"? Why does he require faith to be purposeful if he does not need it?

[This message has been edited by Zinkovich (edited 08-28-2006).]

pyroniccorona

2006-08-28, 03:12

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

All I suggested was that people stop looking for solid evidence.

How about a reasonable amount of strong evidence?[/QUOTE]

I actually would like to see that happen. If its something that many cannot doubt, I wonder how all the non-belivers would react. Out of curiosity, I hope it happens indeed.

quote:Originally posted by Zinkovich:

So, to restate:

Why is God motivated to make faith "not pointless"? Why does he require faith to be purposeful if he does not need it?

I don't completely understand what you're saying. I don't believe God NEEDS us to have faith in him. I do believe he wants us to have faith though. If he wants us to be saved and rise to heaven, and if he wants us to earn our way there, then I can see why he wants us to have faith.

I shall return tomorrow afternoon. First day of college is tomorrow and I want to be awake for this boredom.

Thanks to all that helped.

Zinkovich

2006-08-28, 03:14

Want always implies need, whether it be emotional or physical.

But I can see I am somehow not elucidating my point well, so I'll shut up for now until I can think of a more explicit wording.

Edit: If God requires faith for salvation, that means he wanted faith to be central in the first place. He, after all, defnes the rules by which he himself follows, and the rules by which he judges his creation. Because he would have to define faith to be needed BEFORE making it lead to salvation, the quesiton of WHY he wants faith, if he does not need it, still stands.

[This message has been edited by Zinkovich (edited 08-28-2006).]

Rust

2006-08-28, 03:15

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

All I suggested was that people stop looking for solid evidence.

By suggesting something the requires evidence! Unless they are supposed to determine that god said that something by chance...

AzraelUK

2006-08-28, 12:51

quote:Originally posted by anonymouslyaware:

I think if anything was 100% true then you'd be a moron to not believe it.

You don't believe it, you know it. You don't say "I believe in the moon" or "I believe in cottage cheese". Belief should not be confused with knowledge.

I agree 100% with what pyroniccorona says - if you can prove that he exists, then following him is worthless. It's putting your faith in him that matters.

¬AzrælUK

Interest

2006-08-28, 17:26

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by pyroniccorona

All I suggested was that people stop looking for solid evidence.

How about a reasonable amount of strong evidence?

This arguement has been with us from the very begining. Even Jesus was asked for signs to prove Himself despite the testimony of miracles by many first hand accounts.

Jesus said that there won't be any signs accept for the sign of Jonah in this generation.

If you don't understand what that means - it means the only sign we will see is the changed heart and mind of man. The born again in spirit. When you see a person that was a thief, boozer, player or whatever turn and testify to being born again and no longer does those things that oppose God's will. That is the only evidence we will see.

In fact last week someone testied about His repentent heart. The miracle that happened in his life was scoffed at and minimized. If you want spiritual evidence their is a God then look at the man who now walks the "straight and narrow" path.

The evidence is all around us but those who demand a sign are looking for flashing lights, bells and whistles or something else to temper their carnal needs. If you want to know how God shows Himself then look at a person who is "born again" Inside that person is the evidence of God. Which is true love.

Twisted_Ferret

2006-08-28, 18:26

quote:Originally posted by AzraelUK:

You don't believe it, you know it. You don't say "I believe in the moon" or "I believe in cottage cheese". Belief should not be confused with knowledge.

Uh, I do believe in cottage cheese. Especially 1b. (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/believe) Knowing that something exists doesn't preclude having faith in it. If you knew God existed, then you could still have faith in his love and power and goodness. Why must we instead be uncertain about his existance?

hespeaks

2006-08-28, 18:50

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

This arguement has been with us from the very begining. Even Jesus was asked for signs to prove Himself despite the testimony of miracles by many first hand accounts.

Jesus said that there won't be any signs accept for the sign of Jonah in this generation.

If you don't understand what that means - it means the only sign we will see is the changed heart and mind of man. The born again in spirit. When you see a person that was a thief, boozer, player or whatever turn and testify to being born again and no longer does those things that oppose God's will. That is the only evidence we will see.

In fact last week someone testied about His repentent heart. The miracle that happened in his life was scoffed at and minimized. If you want spiritual evidence their is a God then look at the man who now walks the "straight and narrow" path.

The evidence is all around us but those who demand a sign are looking for flashing lights, bells and whistles or something else to temper their carnal needs. If you want to know how God shows Himself then look at a person who is "born again" Inside that person is the evidence of God. Which is true love.

Basically you're using Pascal's argument that "God has provided evidence sufficiently clear to those with an open heart and an open mind". But is this really true? Is it actually the case that all nonbelievers have hardened their hearts or

closed their minds? Even if we grant that some atheists have engaged in self-deception, there is no reason to

believe that all atheists have done so. If God wished his people to believe him, he would have given convincing evidence of his existance, evidence that is not based on perspective but can be verified by Logic and Science.

As for the subject matter, Faith depends on belief outside of known fact. There is no reason to believe in something that our knowledge cannot discover. Should I have faith that God exist, that Allah exists, that the spirits exist. According to your logic I should, since I could only understand it "with an open mind".

Interest

2006-08-28, 21:43

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

Basically you're using Pascal's argument that "God has provided evidence sufficiently clear to those with an open heart and an open mind". But is this really true? Is it actually the case that all nonbelievers have hardened their hearts or

closed their minds? Even if we grant that some atheists have engaged in self-deception, there is no reason to

believe that all atheists have done so. If God wished his people to believe him, he would have given convincing evidence of his existance, evidence that is not based on perspective but can be verified by Logic and Science.

As for the subject matter, Faith depends on belief outside of known fact. There is no reason to believe in something that our knowledge cannot discover. Should I have faith that God exist, that Allah exists, that the spirits exist. According to your logic I should, since I could only understand it "with an open mind".

I don't think I'm saying it has to be accepted with "an open mind" I'm saying the evidence is beyond scientific reasoning.

I'm saying the only evidence we will see is a man changed from one way of a desperate life to a life of hope, peace and joy as he praises God for it.

Revelation of the heart and mind is something a scientist will never grasp. It's not psychological or carnal in any way. It is a new mind and a new heart - Spiritually.

Until the scientific mind can accept that the spirit of man exists can they find a way to measure it. Not that I'm advocating using the Christian mind as a guinea pig for science. but, who knows as the world turns more towards humanism and rejects the notion of the spiritual then one day maybe people will be deemed insane by the government for believing in God.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

Martini

2006-08-28, 21:58

quote:Originally posted by Interest

I'm saying the evidence is beyond scientific reasoning.

Impossible.

quote:Originally posted by Interest

I'm saying the only evidence we will see is a man changed from one way of a desperate life to a life of hope, peace and joy as he praises God for it.

Children can have hope and joy for the coming of Santa Clause. That is not evidence for his existence.

quote:Originally posted by Interest

Revelation of the heart and mind is something a scientist will never grasp.

Not true.

hespeaks

2006-08-28, 22:18

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

I don't think I'm saying it has to be accepted with "an open mind" I'm saying the evidence is beyond scientific reasoning.

I'm saying the only evidence we will see is a man changed from one way of a desperate life to a life of hope, peace and joy as he praises God for it.

Revelation of the heart and mind is something a scientist will never grasp. It's not psychological or carnal in any way. It is a new mind and a new heart - Spiritually.

Until the scientific mind can accept that the spirit of man exists can they find a way to measure it. Not that I'm advocating using the Christian mind as a guinea pig for science. but, who knows as the world turns more towards humanism and rejects the notion of the spiritual then one day maybe people will be deemed insane by the government for believing in God.

If the evidence is beyond reasoning, then it cannot be known, since knowledge is acquired by logic and observation. The conversion/revelation is not evidence of God's existance, since again it is his perception/psychology. If a person from a cult stated that his leader changed his life for the better, does it follow that the leader is some supernatural power?

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-28, 22:22

I find it incredibly hard to understand how any theist can call science closed-minded.

Offer any scientist a reasonable theory and some small form of evidence and they will gladly consider it, test it, improve upon the theory, and then maybe reject it.

What the theists in this thread are calling for is a rejection of logic and reason, to stop considering the reasons for their views and to just bloody well accept it.

Nope. That ain't good enough.

Interest

2006-08-28, 22:43

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [b]Interest

I'm saying the evidence is beyond scientific reasoning.

quote:

Impossible.

There are phenomenal events that do occur that have no explanation - science can't prove them - science is not god.

quote:

Children can have hope and joy for the coming of Santa Clause. That is not evidence for his existence.

That really is a bad example because St. Nicholas really did exist and really did provide annonymous gifts to needy children. There is documented proof. (I'm sure you'll ask me to come up with it) Santa Claus technically did exist.

As for Christmas - or "holiday season" - snowmen, reindeer, holy and fruitcakes have nothing to do with Christianity. It really was about celebrating the spirit of St. Nicolaus. I think that is about the only connection the holiday has with Christianity. Some claim it was when Christ Jesus was born but "science" has shown that Jesus was likely born a few months earlier.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

Interest

2006-08-28, 22:49

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

If the evidence is beyond reasoning, then it cannot be known, since knowledge is acquired by logic and observation. The conversion/revelation is not evidence of God's existance, since again it is his perception/psychology. If a person from a cult stated that his leader changed his life for the better, does it follow that the leader is some supernatural power?

Some do believe it - erroneously. Doctor's can hand out drugs that make people feel better. Anybody can say hey just get over it..go on vacation..it will make you feel better.

A testimony of one's account of their experience with God is quickly rejected. Even with a careful study of how that persons behavior was and then a complete change in life occurs. That person says they no longer live for themselves but for God.

There are to many unanswered questions to accept it is an act of God. So the scientist will dismiss it. That is why a scientists can not accept it due to it's lack of tangable evidence though it is repeated over and over and over again thoughout generations.

With something so prevelant with widespread occurance in our society, how is it so easily dismissed as fairy tale?

Scientific logic?? You're blind to it..that's all.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

Interest

2006-08-28, 22:55

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

I find it incredibly hard to understand how any theist can call science closed-minded.

Offer any scientist a reasonable theory and some small form of evidence and they will gladly consider it, test it, improve upon the theory, and then maybe reject it.

What the theists in this thread are calling for is a rejection of logic and reason, to stop considering the reasons for their views and to just bloody well accept it.

Nope. That ain't good enough.

Here's the problem - scientists did look at faith or the spiritual - considered that it is without reason and deemed it false or nonexistent. Many blindly accept this conclusion despite the vast amounts of evidence that surrounds it.

Because a scientist says it is not possible for God to exist many latch on to it and feel comforted.

I can say this all day long - because I am here God exists- because the you are here, God exists - because we are even having this conversation God exists. The twisted logic that makes up evolution is the only thing the non-believer has to hang onto to protect them from this truth.

As long as evolution exists, the atheist has sanctuary.

PerpetualBurn

2006-08-28, 22:58

I'm guessing that you just plain don't understand evolution.

As for the rest of it, there is simply no evidence that suggests the existence of God.

Edit: Even without evolution atheism is still the right choice. You cannot use the "God of the gaps" argument. You need to support your own claims, not say "Yeah, well you don't know what did it so I must be right"

[This message has been edited by PerpetualBurn (edited 08-28-2006).]

Interest

2006-08-28, 23:15

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

I'm guessing that you just plain don't understand evolution.

Simple enough - maybe I do know enough to come to a conclusion that it's bogus. Maybe not - But I'm far from being convinced.

quote:

As for the rest of it, there is simply no evidence that suggests the existence of God.

What kind of evidence do you need? Prophesy fullfilled? A sign from above? Where do you look for evidence? It is everywhere and everything. I'm afraid you're trapped in a mental box and can't see outside it's confines and for reason. The earth is man's place - it would be humble to admit we don't have control over any of it - the earth still spins despite our attempts at ruling over it.

quote:

Edit: Even without evolution atheism is still the right choice. You cannot use the "God of the gaps" argument. You need to support your own claims, not say "Yeah, well you don't know what did it so I must be right"

I obviously don't use that arguement. I'm only attempting to show what little evidence that could be entered into this case.

I don't just read the text in the bible and blindly accept it...I pour over it with hopes to find the logic. I have found it and have learned how to read the bible.

Once I understood what I was reading then I held it up to the world and tried to see the contradictions and found none.

All that I have discovered has not been disproven. I wouldn't be coming back here time and time again to be put down and ridiculed. I wouldn't keep telling people about this if I weren't certain that my experience is true and God really has changed my life.

God has repeatedly acknowledged Himself through His word to me over and over and over again. If you want proof..all i can show is behavior changes and a different outlook on life. All deep down soul level things that man's rulers can't reach.

Martini

2006-08-28, 23:17

quote:Originally posted by Interest

There are phenomenal events that do occur that have no explanation - science can't prove them

I'm not sure what events you're talking about, but it doesn't matter. The world of science doesn't claim to be done explaining everything. I can't believe that I actually have to tell you this.

quote:Originally posted by Interest

That really is a bad example because St. Nicholas really did exist and really did provide annonymous gifts to needy children.

Did you seriously not understand my point? It doesn't matter if someone named St. Nicholas actually existed or if someone named Jesus actually existed. The point is that even though we know that Santa Clause doesn't fly around the world on Christmas Eve, sliding down chimeys and leaving gifts, that doesn't stop the beleif that he does from giving children hope and joy. It's an excellent example!

quote:Originally posted by Interest

Because a scientist says it is not possible for God to exist many latch on to it and feel comforted.

You need some serious education on what scientists actually do and say.

[This message has been edited by Martini (edited 08-29-2006).]

Real.PUA

2006-08-29, 00:52

hespeaks

2006-08-29, 01:10

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Some do believe it - erroneously. Doctor's can hand out drugs that make people feel better. Anybody can say hey just get over it..go on vacation..it will make you feel better.

A testimony of one's account of their experience with God is quickly rejected. Even with a careful study of how that persons behavior was and then a complete change in life occurs. That person says they no longer live for themselves but for God.

There are to many unanswered questions to accept it is an act of God. So the scientist will dismiss it. That is why a scientists can not accept it due to it's lack of tangable evidence though it is repeated over and over and over again thoughout generations.

With something so prevelant with widespread occurance in our society, how is it so easily dismissed as fairy tale?

Scientific logic?? You're blind to it..that's all.

Yes, It is eventually rejected because it is more logical that something natural happened to the person and he attributes it to a supernatural power. Give me evidence that a "careful investigation" of that person's psyche would justify this supernatural encounter. That is why the scientists dismiss it. And FYI, the members of Christianity in U.S.A are steadily decreasing; Wicca is the new rapid belief system in the states. I guess they heard the voice of the Great Goddess and therefore she exists. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-29-2006).]

ThePhoenix

2006-08-29, 01:19

Well, there was a study that showed that praying does not help patients recovering from surgery.

Interest, how can you know science will never explain these phenomenons. Thats what people said thousands of years ago.

Interest

2006-08-29, 01:22

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

Yes, It is eventually rejected because it is more logical that something natural happened to the person and he attributes it to a supernatural power. Give me evidence that a "careful investigation" of that person's psyche would justify this supernatural encounter. That is why the scientists dismiss it.

OK..how is that any different then what I said?

quote:

And FYI, the members of Christianity in U.S.A are steadily decreasing; Wicca is the new rapid belief system in the states. I guess they heard the voice of the Great Goddess and therefore she exists. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

as usual I have to disagree - I think the growing cultural trends are going more towards secularism and globalism. (your sarcasm was noticed though so I realize you really weren't serious)

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-29-2006).]

Interest

2006-08-29, 01:28

quote:Originally posted by ThePhoenix:

Well, there was a study that showed that praying does not help patients recovering from surgery.

sounds like a bias report put out by some State University - I have seen reports of prayer helped in recovery - but we usually are attracted to what we want to hear anywayz.

quote:

Interest, how can you know science will never explain these phenomenons. Thats what people said thousands of years ago.

I'm sure one day - someone will be able to build a device that can be implanted into someone to discover the hormones or whatever that detect when someones brain activity is similiar to those "psychotics" that believe in God.

Once the brain patterns are detected I'm sure it will be very easy to determine the crazy God boys from the normal folk...in due time I'm certain of it.

I'm certain though that the soul of a person will never be measured.

ThePhoenix

2006-08-29, 01:32

Interest, its not about WHAT WILL happen, I'm wondering why you are so closed off to to the fact that science might be able to explain everything. Are you afraid of the the whole Brave New World image?

hespeaks

2006-08-29, 01:33

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

as usual I have to disagree - I think the growing cultural trends are going more towards secularism and globalism.

You stated that science repudiates "revelations" despite evidence supposedly supporting them, which is of course baseless. And...

Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990.

The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

I didn't mention cultural trends, I was referring to religious beliefs.

Interest

2006-08-29, 01:34

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

It's called critical thinking.

Sure but by what standards? You can't be a socially acceptable critical thinker unless you follow the socially acceptable guide lines.

I can be all kinds of loopy in the head and say I have critically thought out how the purple apes can dance a jig and that is how kits fly. Obviously that "critical thinking" isn't socially acceptable - To me it sounds fine though...

To you the socially acceptable guildlines for critical thinking is to fit in the secular rhelms of science. Great - but if you think that is the only way then it is the only way - I'm saying that there is more to be considered. Because I can't prove it by scientific methods doesn't mean it doesn't exist...I think someone just said that a while ago.

Obviously dancing purple apes is crazy to consider as real - (I understand that is how you see "religion" but work with me here> )

I have read the bible straight though over 12 times at least - I have spent much more time with specific studies to understand the more "surgical" points. I can't apply scientific logical thinking to what it is that is portrayed because it is the incorrect way of looking at it.

I hope I am starting to make sense because I have said this a hundred times - Biblical / spiritual "critical thinking" Is not the same as secular scientific "critical thinking"

How else can I explain it but showing you what I'm talking about?

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-29-2006).]

Interest

2006-08-29, 01:44

quote:Originally posted by ThePhoenix:

Interest, its not about WHAT WILL happen, I'm wondering why you are so closed off to to the fact that science might be able to explain everything. Are you afraid of the the whole Brave New World image?

Me- my own opinion - WHen you see the events in the bible line up with the daily news it is a cause for alarm - or better yet a cause to sound the alarm. Things written thousands of years ago are shaping up today - Maybe it's just a coincidence ---

As for science - I think it has it's place - measuring and defining the ways of the world - but I do not believe science has a way or will ever have a way to measure and define the soul - don't know what else to say about it.

Interest

2006-08-29, 01:50

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

You stated that science repudiates "revelations" despite evidence supposedly supporting them, which is of course baseless. And...

Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990.

The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. http:// www.religi (http: //www.reli gioustoler ance.org/c hr_prac2.h tm) oustoleran ce.org/chr_prac2.htm

I didn't mention cultural trends, I was referring to religious beliefs.

ok - let's look into it-

hmmm..they show a lot of facts - poles - census - but wait...

Hey, this is a Candadian pole - and they are saying what about their information??

"Although the Canadian census does collect religious information from its citizens, the U.S. decennial census does not. Fortunately, the The Graduate Center of the City University of New York has conducted two major surveys in recent years which fill in many of the gaps."

"50,281 persons who were 18 years of age or older. Phone calls were limited to residential households from the contiguous 48 states"

" Additional questions were asked at a smaller sample of 17,000 households; the margin of error for those questions is ±0.77%."

So the entire population of the united states is represented on this poll conducted by a New York university and is how we are supposed to see religion in america? 17k households - 50k people??

Hey but here's a neat fact "We often analyze verses from the Bible, and use Christianity as a reference point, because about 75% of adults in North America regard themselves as Christian. The next largest organized religions, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Neopaganism and Buddhism are each followed by fewer than 2% of American adults."

Looks like Wicca has a way to go - you may have made it look like people are abandoning Christianity and taking up Wicca.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-29-2006).]

hespeaks

2006-08-29, 02:20

Don't be ridiculous- "Fortunately, the The Graduate Center of the City University of New York has conducted two major surveys in recent years which fill in many of the gaps...Although ARIS involves less than half the number of subjects than NSRI, it is still very accurate; ARIS's margin of error is ± 0.3 percentage points for the main questions. Additional questions were asked at a smaller sample of 17,000 households; the margin of error for those questions is ±0.77%." If youre not satisfied here's more...

% Americans who identify themselves as Christian in 1947 and 2001 89/82

Growth in % of U.S. population identifying as non-religious 1990-2000: +110 http://www.pbs.org/now/society/religionstats.html

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_studies/aris.pdf (P. 14)

You don't mention any sources on your "nice note". I never claimed that Wicca was the most populous. I stated that that they were the fastest. And you believe it feasible to survey all 300 million people?So I have to disregard it until you give sources. So goes your straw-man argument.

[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-29-2006).]

Real.PUA

2006-08-29, 02:22

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Sure but by what standards? You can't be a socially acceptable critical thinker unless you follow the socially acceptable guide lines.

I can be all kinds of loopy in the head and say I have critically thought out how the purple apes can dance a jig and that is how kits fly. Obviously that "critical thinking" isn't socially acceptable - To me it sounds fine though...

To you the socially acceptable guildlines for critical thinking is to fit in the secular rhelms of science. Great - but if you think that is the only way then it is the only way - I'm saying that there is more to be considered. Because I can't prove it by scientific methods doesn't mean it doesn't exist...I think someone just said that a while ago.

Obviously dancing purple apes is crazy to consider as real - (I understand that is how you see "religion" but work with me here> )

I have read the bible straight though over 12 times at least - I have spent much more time with specific studies to understand the more "surgical" points. I can't apply scientific logical thinking to what it is that is portrayed because it is the incorrect way of looking at it.

I hope I am starting to make sense because I have said this a hundred times - Biblical / spiritual "critical thinking" Is not the same as secular scientific "critical thinking"

How else can I explain it but showing you what I'm talking about?

Then lay out the foundations of your spiritual "critical thinking". What are the specific rules from which you formulate beliefs? You must have them, otherwise it's not critical thinking. Here's one guide to critical thinking hosted on totse (as an example of what is required): http://www.totse.com/en/ego/self_improvement/afieldguidetoc174154.html .

Interest

2006-08-31, 03:52

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Then lay out the foundations of your spiritual "critical thinking". What are the specific rules from which you formulate beliefs? You must have them, otherwise it's not critical thinking. Here's one guide to critical thinking hosted on totse (as an example of what is required): http ://www.totse.com/en/ego/self_improvement/afieldguidetoc174154.html (http: //www.tots e.com/en/e go/self_im provement/ afieldguid etoc174154 .html) .

Apparantly you didn't understand what I wrote - totse approved critical thinking also can not be applied to understanding the bible. I'll tell you the template though -

The bible has several dimensions to every passage. Every book carries the covenent of God from the begining to current times.

Each one carries a piece of the decipher key to understanding the complex alagories later in the bible and it is consistent throughout. For example - there is of course great amounts of symbology throughout the text. A dragon, serpeant, snake, etc is often symbolic to Satan or the anti-christ or the anti-christ spirit. Some say this is what 666 stands for - the trinity of evil. The anti- or antithesis of 777 or the Father, Son and Holy spirit.

To use "critical thinking" in understanding the spiritual requires a bit of foundational understanding of how the text is written.

There are 4 major points to understand each passage. There is a alagorical, homilitical, face value and a deeper most hidden message. The allagorical is the symbolic message - homilitical is the moral message, the face value is the the straight up front message- the deeper hidden message is when it speaks to you personally. To a Christian who reads their bible - this is usually how the Holy spirit prompts us when necesary. It will flash a passage through our mind and reminds us of the right path or choice to take.

Don't worry about this - most of this requires faith to agree with so I'm only presenting it for whatever I can get out of it with you.

I just pointed to a passage and will try to apply this spiritual"critical thinking"

"Patience in Suffering

7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. 8You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. 9Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door! "

The moral message is obvious - patience through hardships - though things are hard - do not fall back and complain and say ," there is no God - He will never come" Faith requires careful endurance.

They symbolic / allagory / parable message is clear as well -

a farmer who waits for the crops for the harvest - the allagory is found throughout the bible - planting seeds - fertile ground - the harvest, etc. The word of God is like a seed - sometimes it lands on fertil land and produces a crop - this means it is welcomed into the heart. Sometimes the word lands on unfertil lands and nothing grows.

The surface message is easy to see as well -

A story of a farmer being symbolic to God and the crop being sybolic to the beliver.

The deeper message comes in times of despair or need. When we want to wonder down the wrong path in life - sometimes we are prompted with scriptures like these to remind us of what is coming and where we are headed.

How is "scientific" logical thinking going to earn you an understanding with any of this? There is nothing to measure, nothing to touch, or hold. There is no tangable proof of how an idea may blossom in the heart and mind of man - despite what that idea may be. This is not psychology or physics - it is a place unmeasurable by man. It is the contents of the soul of a person.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-31-2006).]

Real.PUA

2006-08-31, 04:17

Apparently you did not understand what i wrote because I specifically stated that totse guide was simply an example, giving you a chance to provide a "spiritual" counterpart. You have failed at doing so.

What you describe is not critical thinking, it's analysis. Just because you can analyze a biblical passage does not mean you are thinking critically. You could very well analyze the religious meaning of the bible with out even believeing in it.

What i am trying to get at is why does someone believe in god? It's obviously not a logical or scientific conclusion, you seem to be claiming that it is some sort of spiritual conclusion based on some sort of spiritual reasoning process (you claim that isnt an oxymoron). You have not provided any description of such a process.

We weren't even talking about the bible when this started, you were talking about doctors prescribing drugs contrasted with testimonial evidence from believers in god. I would like to see how your spiritual "critical thinking" is applied to that.

Interest

2006-08-31, 06:44

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Apparently you did not understand what i wrote because I specifically stated that totse guide was simply an example, giving you a chance to provide a "spiritual" counterpart. You have failed at doing so.

I don't know what to tell you then..the critical thought process requires you to at least understand what's in front of you.

quote:

What you describe is not critical thinking, it's analysis. Just because you can analyze a biblical passage does not mean you are thinking critically.

Are you saying analyzing the facts is not a part of critical thinking?

The next step would be to see if what it someone experiences really is happening -

Unlike the stories of the easter bunny - a fairytale - there is no indication of fact or evidence that shows an easter bunny lays eggs and paints them. Proven false -

A person having patience in faith is another thing. It does happen - proven true. This is by far not any indication of the proof God exists - but once one understands what evidence to look for then it is more clear to see - There is no way to prove a person's "spiritual eyes" are now open to the spiritual world. The only evidence is their testimony and life - apparantly that is not good enough for you.

You say we have to apply scientific reasoning and critical thinking - but, it's called trust. trust in the Lord.

quote:

You could very well analyze the religious meaning of the bible with out even believeing in it.

You can - I agree - but you will most likely not come to the correct conclusion. It really is a "living bible" and it's "truth" reveals itself by the level of your own humility.

quote:

What i am trying to get at is why does someone believe in god? It's obviously not a logical or scientific conclusion, you seem to be claiming that it is some sort of spiritual conclusion based on some sort of spiritual reasoning process (you claim that isnt an oxymoron). You have not provided any description of such a process.

I have all along - you don't hear it or see it. There is nothing I can do about that.

Faith requires trust - trust in something is built over time by repeating events. Once you trust - faith is easier to obtain. There is a process. One is lost - then they are found. They are picked up, and turned around. Corny I know but a destitute broken soul that is brought to an upright position by the will of God knows what I'm saying.

quote:

We weren't even talking about the bible when this started, you were talking about doctors prescribing drugs contrasted with testimonial evidence from believers in god. I would like to see how your spiritual "critical thinking" is applied to that.

You are expecting me to give you an answer that is repeating your understanding of what "critical thinking" is. You will not hear what I have to say if you are unable to move away from the "critical thought process".

I don't know how to explain that there is something in the faithless - it is "dead", "asleep", "unaware" I'm not sure what the right word is. Those who don't know God have never met Him. It's elementary

The only way to HIm is to be "alive", "awake", "aware" of Him. It's not difficult to understand this. If someone is dead, they will not hear someone knocking on their casket. Only when they are alive will they hear the knock.

The flow of logic in "spirtuality" is not much different then understanding the cycle of life in the temporal. (Birth, life, death)

I know I am still analyzing the issue - but I see the critical thinking comes afer the understanding. It's called "counting the costs" in Christianity.

Once you know, then you have to do some serious meditation and consider what it is you are made aware of and what it means to willingly conform to it and trust that God is lovely, gentle and merciful with our souls.

Spiritual critical thinking is the process of coming to trust and acceptance. It is very easy to do because this happens soon after God grabs you by the heart and begins cleaning house.

This is in the form of desires - the things we desire to pacify us to sooth our acheing conscience. The crutch we need in life is removed and we experience true freedom for the first time ever.

Once the journey begins - reading the bible no longer seems difficult - in fact it no longer seems to speak out against you. You begin to read deeper and deeper into it and it acknowledges the changes you experience in yourself.

There is very little place ot stop and contemplate the reality of it - once you are born - you are born. How do you apply critical thinking to yourself to determine if you exist or not? It makes no sense.

That is why scientific critical thinking has hardly a place in determing the truth of someone who has experienced being born again. It is the single most profound and incredible miracle God continues to do today. Millions of men, woman and children have gone through this - the testimonies are similiar.

The evidence of what happens in the real world mate well with the account of the journey one goes through described in the bible. That is the assurance of the truth and validity of the bible.

I'll end my ramblings here...

thanks for reading this far.