View Full Version : Hydrogen cars
Koolaidman43
2007-05-01, 14:31
yes, hydro cars would be a great thing, and could stop global warming, but if hydro cars EMIT oxygen, its will be better for the enviroment, yes, but given enuf time, oxygen levels will start to increase, and after a while(long time), our atmosphere could catch fire!!!
as we all no(or should no), oxygen is very flammable. if there is too much oxygen in the atmosphere, the atmosphere itself could be flammable, causing a problem MUCH bigger than global warming. thoughts on this?
-Koolaidman43
this a joke?
anyway hybrid cars don't emit oxygen
Koolaidman43
2007-05-01, 18:48
this a joke?
anyway hybrid cars don't emit oxygen
SRY!! not hybrids... it was those hyDRO cars.. hydro cars emit oxygen... those are to worry about..
SRY!! not hybrids... it was those hyDRO cars.. hydro cars emit oxygen... those are to worry about..
hydro cars? do you mean hydrogen powered cars? they release water, infact they react either through combustion or a fuel cell with oxygen releasing water.
boozehound420
2007-05-02, 00:06
You take water. Turn it into hydrogen and oxygen. Both go into the engine and get ignited, resulting in an explosion to move the pistons. The hydrogen and oxygen recombine back into water.
I'm not shur how fuel cells work, but its the same principles. It doesnt release oxygen.
MasterPython
2007-05-02, 07:30
Unless you have a clean way of separating the water you are just moving pollution around. That's good if you are fighting smog in cities but neutral at best if you want to fight pollution in general. Hydrogen is great in Iceland because their island is on two different tectonic plates and they can use geothermal energy to heat their homes run their industry and make electricity to separate water. But in North America the best you could hope for is that the pollution from a coal fired plant that makes the electricity to separate water is less than the pollution a regular car would cause.
Not sure if those guys at United Nuclear are ever going to make their hydrogen car system workable. But if you lived in a sunny enough place in theory you could run your car off the grid.
You take water. Turn it into hydrogen and oxygen. Both go into the engine and get ignited, resulting in an explosion to move the pistons. The hydrogen and oxygen recombine back into water.
I'm not shur how fuel cells work, but its the same principles. It doesnt release oxygen.
hydrogen fuel cells basically work by using a catalyst to split the Hydrogen into H+ ions and electrons. The ions are allowed to pass through a special membrane while the electrons are not, they have to travel around a wire to the cathode thus creating a current. The electrons, H+ ions and oxygen then combine to form water.
found this diagram, explains it fairly simply: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Fuel_cell_still.gif
boozehound420
2007-05-03, 01:11
Unless you have a clean way of separating the water you are just moving pollution around. That's good if you are fighting smog in cities but neutral at best if you want to fight pollution in general. Hydrogen is great in Iceland because their island is on two different tectonic plates and they can use geothermal energy to heat their homes run their industry and make electricity to separate water. But in North America the best you could hope for is that the pollution from a coal fired plant that makes the electricity to separate water is less than the pollution a regular car would cause.
Not sure if those guys at United Nuclear are ever going to make their hydrogen car system workable. But if you lived in a sunny enough place in theory you could run your car off the grid.
well theres Hydro electricity. Something everybody fails to mention. Canada is about half Hydro. Then theres nuclear. And soon to be fusion if all goes well, which would be the perfect solution. Then for small towns wind is the best.
North american is pacted with rivers. The rockies create the best areas for dams. Steep inclined rivers generate the most electricity.
well theres Hydro electricity. Something everybody fails to mention. Canada is about half Hydro. Then theres nuclear. And soon to be fusion if all goes well, which would be the perfect solution. Then for small towns wind is the best.
North american is pacted with rivers. The rockies create the best areas for dams. Steep inclined rivers generate the most electricity.
almost every site for large scale hydroproduction has already been damned, if you did find a good site you have to think about the environmental damage that the damn will cause to the surrounding area.
Small scale hydro for small towns and villages is a fairly good option. There are thousands of sites here in the UK that could be used small scale, and the best thing is we already know where alot of them are as not so long ago their were water powered mills or factories at these sites utilising the water power. (Infact i saw a water wheel mil which had a generator attached to the wheel generating a couple of kilowatts). I imagine the situation would be fairly similiar in parts of the US and the same in mainland europe.
I personally think that we should focus our energy (so to speak) on creating better batteries. If there was an electric car that had a 500 mile range and could completely recharge in 5 mins, there would be no need for hydrogen or any type of fuel but electricity. Hydrogen is basically just going to be used as a quick charging battery system. You put energy in when its made, transfer that to he car in the form of liquid hydro, and then release that energy in the fuel cell. Basically a very complicated and expensive battery charging system.
Eat A Queer Fetus For Jesus
2007-05-07, 02:53
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/17/1912213
dhalgren's haze
2007-05-10, 15:04
Uh yea, great, but ultimately you will need resources, and what good are cars if there are no roads. Buy a comfy pair of running shoes, better off. No program is goin to be implemented, cuz the gov't knows its foolish to even try to switch our whole infrastructure over, everything depends on gasoline, after we rape Alaska and iraq and iran, thats it, no more oil, no more SUVs, the party is over. Try thinking of a way to get to your job without a car, matter of fact, try thinking of a way to sustain you and your family's lives without a job or a vehicle. Thunderdome, here we come.
boozehound420
2007-05-10, 23:40
Uh yea, great, but ultimately you will need resources, and what good are cars if there are no roads. Buy a comfy pair of running shoes, better off. No program is goin to be implemented, cuz the gov't knows its foolish to even try to switch our whole infrastructure over, everything depends on gasoline, after we rape Alaska and iraq and iran, thats it, no more oil, no more SUVs, the party is over. Try thinking of a way to get to your job without a car, matter of fact, try thinking of a way to sustain you and your family's lives without a job or a vehicle. Thunderdome, here we come.
when that happens the immigrants picking berries will be the rich ones
thizz all day
2007-05-11, 21:55
I bet koolaidman feels like a fucking idiot.
Goddamn idiot.
I just posted this in another thread, but I think it's applicable here as we're on about batteries and eco-stuff.
Li-ion batteries take 10 times more energy to recycle than it does to make them. So if everyone's driving Li-ion cars which need new packs every two years, what the fuck happens to all the waste batteries? If they'er recycled, it'll take huge amounts of energy.
Before everyone uses electric cars, we've gotta come up with another battery technology first. Electric cars are NOT gonna be a miracle which saves the earth overnight.
I read a white paper on batteries and the environment, and with the current battery/motor efficiency, if everyone owned an electric car, the power consumption of all those houses would triple. So we'd need three times more power stations...so we'd need power stations which are more efficient than car engines, otherwise the situation would go nowhere.
If week keep using hybrid cars, we will generate so much smug we all will be killed by it''
Eat A Queer Fetus For Jesus
2007-05-18, 05:32
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/news/2007/05/hybrid_mpg
dhalgren's haze
2007-05-22, 20:55
when that happens the immigrants picking berries will be the rich ones
Exactly right, permaculture.
fretbuzz
2007-05-31, 23:37
well theres Hydro electricity...Then theres nuclear. And soon to be fusion if all goes well, which would be the perfect solution. Then for small towns wind is the best.
North american is pacted with rivers. The rockies create the best areas for dams. Steep inclined rivers generate the most electricity.
Hydroelectric power produces a tiny percent of the world's energy and is geographicly limited to certain areas. Oh and yeah, nuclear fusion will soon be available.. :rolleyes:
deus-redux
2007-06-01, 11:22
Plant ethanol, bio-diesel, this is where we need to be looking.
People argue against them because they emit more than water while burned, but everything they emit, they absorbed in the first place.
The net effect is 0. The power comes from the sun as they grow. :)
-deus-
Plant ethanol, bio-diesel, this is where we need to be looking.
People argue against them because they emit more than water while burned, but everything they emit, they absorbed in the first place.
The net effect is 0. The power comes from the sun as they grow. :)
-deus-
Not to mention it would require very little alteration for even the oldest cars to run on those types of fuel. Bio-Diesel is the easiest to produce and ethanol the corn industry can get rich quick off it.
telecomnerd
2007-06-04, 07:24
Corn farmers couldn't keep up with demand. I suggest buying a good quality bicycle and the tools needed to maintain it.
deus-redux
2007-06-04, 10:32
Corn farmers couldn't keep up with demand. I suggest buying a good quality bicycle and the tools needed to maintain it.
Which is good for them. Just bad for us users. We might have to stop growing less useful food crops and replace them with fuel crops.
-deus-
Which is good for them. Just bad for us users. We might have to stop growing less useful food crops and replace them with fuel crops.
-deus-
or we all turn vegetarian or vegan
Dark_Magneto
2007-06-05, 12:59
Ethanol is government subsidized garbage that would always cost more than a gallon of unleaded due to fossil fuel inputs in it's production if it weren't for subsidies.
Rising price of growing oil alternatives raises demand for oil (http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/5/21/145537/916)
The absurdity of turning to our petro-soaked agricultural sector to free us from oil will, I expect, only grow more obvious and glaring in coming years.
Ethanol is government subsidized garbage that would always cost more than a gallon of unleaded due to fossil fuel inputs in it's production if it weren't for subsidies.
Rising price of growing oil alternatives raises demand for oil (http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/5/21/145537/916)
so true but no doubt they will try
http://openflv.com/watch?v=MjQ5MjExNA==&p=0
www.ev1.org
Nuff' said.
Peace.
abecker1313
2007-07-03, 16:57
farmers are gonna get rich off ethanol.
ethanol production has already started to jack up the price of food products. since farmers are focusing on producing corn for ethanol it means that corn and flour are going to go up. Other farmers have switched their crops to support the green movement and it is making the cost of their old crops soar.
http://www.biodieselinvesting.com/biodiesel-archives/2007/03/07/beer-prices-could-rise-due-to-the-high-demand-for-corn/
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/06/22/797170-pizza-makers-face-higher-cheese-costs
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sciencetech/homepage/article_1660665.php
so i guess the point is to use biodiesel until hydrogen is implemented.
Jacobthegenius
2007-07-13, 12:27
Vanadium batteries are the answer. The battery itself is quite small, and the electrolyte is pumped through it. Then once the electrolyte is discharged it can be replaced or recharged. All a fuel station would do is remove a cars used electrolyte, and replace it with fresh, charged liquid, and recharge the old electrolyte. Google it.
omega man
2007-07-15, 06:29
wouldn't it be more beneficial to increase the range of miles a vehicle can go by using more efficient transmissions for the engines on all cars and trucks (electric,hybred,gas deisel,ect). i haven't seen a lot of cars with large gear efficiencies to improve gas milage over the years.
Rude_Hero
2007-07-16, 05:15
Oxygen isn't flammable....
Pure O2 will not ignite onless a fuel is present.
I thought hydro cars only emission was h20?
I thought hydro cars only emission was h20?
yes they do with H2 being the fuel
Orly?
edit:
didn't you see Who Killed The Electric Car? it explains why hydrogen powered cars are inefficient and the hydrogen fuel cell requires huge advancements in technology in order to make it a realistic alternative to electricity or gasoline.
outsmartyouwithignorance
2007-07-22, 20:46
for all of you on ethanol, stop. Just stop right now and think for one minute.
To grow a crop, you need oil. pesticides,fertilizers, and agricultural tools all require petroleum.
Not to mention, on average, (in the united states) each piece of food you eat, travels about 1500miles, and 5000miles on average if you live in Canada.
Also, using all of that petroleum for transportation,watering,processing ect.. you actually have a net loss of energy. it takes roughly 6 calories of energy to produce one calorie of energy form ethanol.
not to mention to power one car, and entire year (10,000mi)
it would take 11 acres of corn. So if you want to run all of the worlds cars on ethanol, you're looking at covering 97% of the worlds land in corn. Good luck.
Bio diesel is probably the most acceptable form of alternative fuel because it doesn't waste energy in its production process, and doesn't require trillions of dollars to replace the infrastructure like hydrogen.
the only issue with bio diesel is it only has an EROI (energy return on investment)of 1 to 3, meaning we only get 3 calories of energy for every one calorie put into making it. where as oil has about a 1 to 20 or in some cases 1 to 30 depending on where it was drilled and its quality.
knowtwodrugs
2007-07-26, 01:35
for all of you on ethanol, stop. Just stop right now and think for one minute.
To grow a crop, you need oil. pesticides,fertilizers, and agricultural tools all require petroleum.
Not to mention, on average, (in the united states) each piece of food you eat, travels about 1500miles, and 5000miles on average if you live in Canada.
Also, using all of that petroleum for transportation,watering,processing ect.. you actually have a net loss of energy. it takes roughly 6 calories of energy to produce one calorie of energy form ethanol.
not to mention to power one car, and entire year (10,000mi)
it would take 11 acres of corn. So if you want to run all of the worlds cars on ethanol, you're looking at covering 97% of the worlds land in corn. Good luck.
Bio diesel is probably the most acceptable form of alternative fuel because it doesn't waste energy in its production process, and doesn't require trillions of dollars to replace the infrastructure like hydrogen.
the only issue with bio diesel is it only has an EROI (energy return on investment)of 1 to 3, meaning we only get 3 calories of energy for every one calorie put into making it. where as oil has about a 1 to 20 or in some cases 1 to 30 depending on where it was drilled and its quality.
I agree that ethanol isn't THE solution, but I think that the world needs a variety of solutions. I myself drive a diesel CAR and get 45-50 MPG. I haven't converted to bio-diesel yet, but here are my thought on that: What happens when everyone (which won't happen) converts to bio diesel? There won't be enough to go around and prices will sky-rocket. instead of the local restaurant giving you it's waste grease instead of paying someone to remove it, it will start giving it to the highest bidder.
Omega man: we will never see more efficient gear ratios in vehicles. I might have them in mine, my '81 diesel vw rabbit. It's slow as shit! but people like to go fast! if you don't like to go fast then you're jerking yourself off and everybody around you.
Back to ethanol, even if the cost is high, when we're out of petroleum I don't think we'll care. =) Anyway, what hasn't been mentioned here yet is that there's more to oil than powering our cars... plastic is made out of oil. I don't know about you, but most of my daily life involves handling a lot of plastic. If we were to run out of oil without any fore-warning and planning we'd have more to worry about than just driving to work.
outsmartyouwithignorance
2007-07-26, 06:20
Back to ethanol, even if the cost is high, when we're out of petroleum I don't think we'll care. =) Anyway, what hasn't been mentioned here yet is that there's more to oil than powering our cars... plastic is made out of oil. I don't know about you, but most of my daily life involves handling a lot of plastic. If we were to run out of oil without any fore-warning and planning we'd have more to worry about than just driving to work.
I agree, in fact i posted something along these lines in the thread 'a point often missed' here it is ^.^
Im glad Im not the only one who noticed, I applaud you.
as said earlier, it truly is the earths way of resetting.
Food wont be able to be transported thousands of miles anymore, there wont be any more walmarts, no goods from china.
Petroleum is our life. I dont think most people really understand how much we rely on it. Medicine, plastics,rubbers, your food, clothing, all of these require petroleum or its derivatives in some way. hell the computer youre using right now contains 10 times its weight in fossil fuels. The average care consumes about 20 barrels of fuel, and 120,000 gallons of fresh water to create. not to mention the fuel cost of actually using it!!
Without petroleum carrying the weak, they will die. Those not capable of taking care of themselves, those not competent, and those not healthy, will suffer.
It took roughly 125 years to burn through our first trillion barrels of oil, and experts say it should take no more than 30 years to burn through the next trillion.
And thats if there arent wars!! as of right now, the average american soldier uses 16gallons of fuel per day. either directly or indirectly by calling in air strikes. 16 gallons a day!
last year they used 8 gallons a day, in the gulf war,4 gallons per soldier per day, and in WWII it was only one gallon per soldier per day.
I hope everyone enjoys these last few years of cheap oil, and easy times, because in a few years, things will start to get dirty.
sixmillion
2007-07-27, 07:42
How can hydrogen cars possibley be any sory of soultion to global warming when in order to obtain the hydrogen (through electrolysis of water), fossil fuels must be combusted to generate the energy for the process...
Dark_Magneto
2007-08-12, 06:57
Just a relatively minor example of how fucked we are without fossil fuels and how no renewable so-called "alternatives" are going to save us from our self-manufactured downfall.
rabbitweed
2007-08-14, 10:22
You people are complete fucking idiots if you know there's an oil crisis coming and all you can think of is "OMG HOW CAN I DRIVE MY CAR"
There are a million more important things that need oil than moving your lazy ass around.
For fucks sake.
rabbitweed
2007-08-14, 10:23
Corn farmers couldn't keep up with demand. I suggest buying a good quality bicycle and the tools needed to maintain it.
Exactly.