View Full Version : Perverted Interpretation Of The Bible
inuteroteen
2007-09-12, 01:06
I don't see where a fundy can actually get off claiming the earth is 6000 years old, and blah blah blah, the bible says so bullshit. Shouldn't the people who wrote the book (old testament/Tanakh) aka, the jews know the true interpretation? Or maybe the church that single handedly kept christianity alive for fifteen hundred years. Also, "The Bible is true because it says it is (insert bible passage here)" is absolutely retarded circular logic.
shitty wok
2007-09-12, 01:45
retarded circular logic.
That's religion for you.
jackketch
2007-09-12, 09:02
Unfortunately most 'fundies' actually know about as little as you seem to about the bloody book.
ArmsMerchant
2007-09-12, 21:32
The majority of people on the planet do not consider the Bible to be an authoritative source.
Those who do, tend to be rather shrill and insistent--not to say obnoxious-- about it.
As do many who do not.
FreedomHippie
2007-09-13, 05:11
Unfortunately most 'fundies' actually know about as little as you seem to about the bloody book.
Anyone who would honestly sit down and read and understand the bible, and than believe it to be the true word of god needs to really look at what they are reading. It doesn't take long for that story book to tell you non-sense. It says specificaly in the bible that god is selfish and jealous.
socratic
2007-09-13, 11:32
Plus, I like how people overlook that the Bible, despite being said to be written by God, was compiled by humans and has gone through SEVERAL editions. Leaves a lot of room for human error.
I like the Bible in the same way that I like any other work of fiction.
Unfortunately most 'fundies' actually know about as little as you seem to about the bloody book.
So true! Problem with fundies is they want to take it all as literal stories even tho the one they call the Word spoke in parables! Makes a lot more sense if it's read as a series of metaphors, analogies and parables mixed in with some stories and a bit of history to make it 'intersting'. For example: The garden of Eden, the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When did you last see one of those? Obviously it's not a literal tree, it's like a "family tree". Read the rest of the story as a metaphor and it's possible to understand it as a story that applies to many. Read the story! The world was created good, "very good", it's was all good. There was nothing else only the good stuff 'created', the notion of good and evil does not fit into that, the apparent meaning being that when one makes a subjective judgement on whether something is good or evil, one creates an illusion. That maybe the analogy: evil, is the illusions created in one's mind when we make judgements about things!
Like the old chinese proverb of the farmer who discovers a horse in his paddock. His neighbours gather round and say what luck! A Horse you'll be able to use it to pull a plough and grow more crops. The farmer says "who can tell" if it's good or evil luck. Next day his teenage son tries to ride the horse and breaks a leg. The neighbours all go aaah it was bad luck, the farmer says who can tell! Next day the army comes to town and pressgangs all the young men except the farmers son!
jackketch
2007-09-13, 12:39
Plus, I like how people overlook that the Bible, despite being said to be written by God, was compiled by humans and has gone through SEVERAL editions. Leaves a lot of room for human error.
I like the Bible in the same way that I like any other work of fiction.
Only people who know nothing about it would claim it was written by god or dictated to a human author by Him (like the Koran).
The only part God is said to have written directly is the ten commandments and the odd bit of dictation 'son of man write these words' kinda thing.
socratic
2007-09-13, 21:57
Only people who know nothing about it would claim it was written by god or dictated to a human author by Him (like the Koran).
The only part God is said to have written directly is the ten commandments and the odd bit of dictation 'son of man write these words' kinda thing.
I seem to have this conception, and correct me if I'm wrong, that on the first page, it says something along the lines of 'These are the words of God, written by Him through mankind' or something like that. It's been a long time since I've read a Bible mind you, so I could be wrong.
The bible proves itself true through old testement/new testement prophecies that have come true. Also try google searching the bible code, and check the truth of the prophecies it proclaims.
FreedomHippie
2007-09-14, 00:45
The bible proves itself true through old testement/new testement prophecies that have come true. Also try google searching the bible code, and check the truth of the prophecies it proclaims.
yea revelations is coming, were going home soon :)
ArmsMerchant
2007-09-14, 01:16
The bible proves itself true through old testement/new testement prophecies that have come true. Also try google searching the bible code, and check the truth of the prophecies it proclaims.
Since you brought it up, you cite a few. In detail.
Put up or shut up.
Xerxes35
2007-09-14, 06:31
Since you brought it up, you cite a few. In detail.
Put up or shut up.
Prove your shamanistic practices work. Call up James Randi and win the million dollar challenge. You are as stupid as they are.
Xerxes35
2007-09-14, 06:33
The bible proves itself true through old testement/new testement prophecies that have come true. Also try google searching the bible code, and check the truth of the prophecies it proclaims.
You are an idiot.
FreedomHippie
2007-09-14, 06:36
You are an idiot.
Seems all you want to do is make empty comments...
"You are an Idiot"
"Your a dumbfuck"
Why even bother?
CatharticWeek
2007-09-14, 10:03
If you look at what Descartes argues. And he has a point. The entire universe could well be an illusion. An infinite being would have infinite power.
And how could we tell? We couldn't. It would be so powerful as to keep us in utter disbelief.
So, take Christianity with a pinch of salt. Descartes is watching joo.
socratic
2007-09-14, 11:34
If you look at what Descartes argues. And he has a point. The entire universe could well be an illusion. An infinite being would have infinite power.
And how could we tell? We couldn't. It would be so powerful as to keep us in utter disbelief.
So, take Christianity with a pinch of salt. Descartes is watching joo.
Not only that, Renee invented the Cartesian plane.
I really need to read his Meditations
FreedomHippie
2007-09-14, 16:34
If you look at what Descartes argues. And he has a point. The entire universe could well be an illusion. An infinite being would have infinite power.
And how could we tell? We couldn't. It would be so powerful as to keep us in utter disbelief.
So, take Christianity with a pinch of salt. Descartes is watching joo.
We have been having an on going discussion in another thread about that very thing, the entire universe could be an illusion, and the only thing that truly exists is thought, or the act of thinking. "I think, therefore I am"(in the first person)
Where might I be able to read about Descartes view on this?
Since you brought it up, you cite a few. In detail.
Put up or shut up.
Ok...
Isaiah 7:14: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (Christ)."
And there is proof that, there was a Jesus of Nazerath who was concieved by virgin birth.
The Destruction of Tyre
In the year 595 B.C. a man named Ezekiel was given a prophecy regarding the city of Tyre, a city in the modern day country of Lebanon . At that time this city was a large thriving city and a great enemy of Israel. He was told:
"Thus says the Lord God: 'behold I am against you o Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets...it shall become plunder for the nations...behold I will bring against Tare from the north King Nebuchadnezzer, King of Babylon.. he will slay your people by the sword and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timbers, and your soil in the midst of the water...l will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken. Will the coast lands not shake at the sound of your fall.. then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments...and be astonished at you". (Ezekiel 26:3)
These are the very specific prophecies for the city of Tyre made by a Hebrew prophet 2600 years ago.
1. Nebuchadnezzer will destroy the mainland city of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:8)
2. Many nations against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3).
3. Make her bare rock; flat like the top of a rock (Ezekiel 26:4)
4. Fishermen will spread their nets over the site (Ezekiel 26:5)
5. Throw the stones and timbers into the water (Ezekiel 26:12)
6. Never be rebuilt(Ezekiel 26: 14)
7. Princes of nearby coast lands will be astonished by Tyre's fall and give up their thrones.
Now lets look at what secular history says happened to Tyre.
In the year 586 B.C. Nebuchadnezzer, the King of the Babylonian Empire began to attack the city of Tyre. The Babylonian army was the greatest fighting force up to that time and besieged the city of Tyre for 13 years. When they finally broke down the gates and walls of Tyre he found that the people had moved out to an island 1/2 mile off the coast of Tyre. #l fulfilled. City besieged.
In the year 332 B.C. Alexander the Great laid siege against the island city of Tare because they would not submit to his authority. The Encyclopedia Britannica states that because Alexander the Great had no fleet of ships he demolished old Tyre on the mainland and he threw the debris (stones and timbers and dirt) into the ocean and made a causeway (jetty or wood/stone bridge) connecting the mainland to the newer island city of Tyre.
Secular historian Phillip Myers stated in his textbook of history that:
" Alexander the Great reduced Tare to ruins in 332 B.C. Tyre recovered in a measure from this blow, but never regained the place she had previously held in the world. the larger part of the site of the once great city is now as bare as the top of a rock- a place where the fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry" #2,3,4,5 fulfilled.(1)
Secular historians have stated that the ruins of Tyre are highly unique. Tare ruins are the only ones in the world that have been completely thrown into the ocean.
After Alexander the Great, the island city persisted in various degrees of strength. during the next 16 centuries. Many kings besieged the city until its final destruction by the Moslems began in 1291 AD
Currently, there is a flat rock area with not one stone upon another. The stones that were thrown into the sea are still there. Other than a few nearby small fishing villages, there is no evidence of the former great city. On the flat former foundation stones you find to the present day fishermen drying their nets. #6 fulfilled.. Never rebuilt.
Secular historians record that when Alexander the Great besieged the city of Tyre that many of the neighboring kings submitted to his authority without a battle. #7 fulfilled. Princes give up their thrones.
How could Ezekiel know these things? Because he served the creator of the universe. i.e. the God of the Bible who told Isaiah, Ezekiel and the other prophets that he would tell them things before they happened so that when they happened the people would know that he was truly God. This is only one of hundreds of Hebrew prophecies that have come true to the very word. God states that he can see the beginning from the end; that he is outside of time; that he can see all the history of man like we would look at the pages of a book. Sounds impossible doesn't it? Well it is if you happen to live in our four dimensional universe.
However, an interesting outcome of Einstein's theory of relativity was the discovery of dimensions of time and space that exist separately and distinct from the four dimensions we experience. In fact, these dimensions may even be in our midst but not visible to us. More recently mathematicians have shown that up to eleven dimensions may exist in the universe. Many physicists believe that there are places in the universe where time ceases to flow. One of these places is in a black hole. Now it is interesting that the Bible tells us that God dwells in a place where time does not flow. For centuries this concept was mocked by scientists. Such a place is now scientific fact.
If one were to be sucked into a black hole, or any other realm where time ceases to flow, we could see the flow of time, in places where there is time, like we were reading the pages of a book. Since we would experience no flow of time, the beginning and the end of time filled dimensions would be present and observable all at once.
These strange facts of physics may be evidence for the truth of what we call the supernatural "spirit realm". However, if these supernatural dimensions can be shown mathematically possible then they are not really supernatural. Rather, they are natural. People believe in a lot of things we can't see ( wind, atoms, heat, electromagnetic radiation, luck). Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real.
The Skeptics Reply
Now the skeptic immediately says that the book of Ezekiel must have been written after these events took place. However, archaeological finds have produced Ezekiel texts that are dated to as far back as 400-600 B.C. In this century an almost complete Ezekiel text on stone tablets was found. The type of Hebrew on these tablets indicates that it was from the time of Ezekiel i.e. 500-600 B.C. There are many scholars who believe that this stone work may be from the hands of Ezekiel himself. Alexander the Great didn't invade the city until 332 B.C., long after Ezekiel's death. The final fulfillment of the prophecy did not happen until 1291 AD i.e., about 1700 years after Ezekiel's death. The story of Tyre is in the oldest text's known.
Another interesting fact is that these 2500 year old stone tablets contain exactly the same text as the Hebrew Bible you can buy today.(2) So much for text being lost or changed because of faulty translation.. Others might argue luck. Well, the mathematical probability that Ezekiel could have guessed so many unlikely events happening is staggering. But this is only one small prophecy. There are hundreds that have come true. For an extensive treatment of this prophecy see Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.(3)
God told the prophets that he would tell them things that would happen in advance so they would recognize him as a supremely intelligent all knowing creator that exists outside time and space. This kind of evidence was very impressive to men in those days. However, in today's world most people live with very little awareness of God. We tend to rationalize prophecies like these saying that there must be a "natural explanation". Many people don't want to see this kind of evidence because they are comfortable with their agnostic view that a knowledge of God is not possible; or worse yet, that there is no God. Many people are like the man that says "don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up". However, whether we choose to believe a fact does not alter the truth of it . That is, you can choose to believe that there is no gravity. However, this is not rational since the abundance of evidence seems to point to the truth of gravity. There is at least a 50/50 chance that there is a God.
The more evidence that we find that seems to support this fact the higher the probability that there is a God.
FreedomHippie
2007-09-15, 05:17
Ok...
Isaiah 7:14: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (Christ)."
And there is proof that, there was a Jesus of Nazerath who was concieved by virgin birth.
Is the really proof that the mother of Jesus was a virgin? How can you prove this?
As for The Destruction of Tyre, couldn't some of those people just be carrying out what is in the bible? I mean, if i were Nebuchadnezzer and the bible said i could destroy this city, what's to stop me from doing so? People could also argue that what the bible predicts is no less vague than what Nostradamus predicted.
The bible is strange indeed.
In particular I like the daughter instructions on getting pregnant by your dad, that of course her sister follows.... :D
Digital_Savior
2007-09-15, 07:43
Since you brought it up, you cite a few. In detail.
Put up or shut up.
I do believe I saw you once claim to be tolerant of other people's beliefs....to which I responded, "All but Christianity." I can't recall if I ever received a response from you or not. I guess this will suffice.
Digital_Savior
2007-09-15, 09:12
Only people who know nothing about it would claim it was written by god or dictated to a human author by Him (like the Koran).
I guess I know nothing about it then...eh, Jack ? ;)
As you well know, Christians believe that God IS the word, and the Bible is simply the physical manifestation of Him (He in written form). Here is why we think this:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- John 1:1
It is true that the Bible was physically written by men, but the ideas, concepts, words, commandments, and instructions were all divinely inspired by God (according to Christianity). Here is why we think this:
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -- 2 Peter 1:21
Here are just a few examples of this happening:
To Ezekiel the Prophet: "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him." -- Ezekiel 1:1-3
To Paul the Apostle: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 14:37
(for more, simply reference Isaiah, Jeremiah, and any of the disciples of Christ)
The reason Christians believe that scripture is everlasting, inerrant, and cannot be changed in any way, shape, or form is because of these verses:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away." -- Mark 13:31
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth but the word of our God shall stand forever." -- Isaiah 40:8
“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." -- Proverbs 30:5-6
"All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17
In consulting the good book itself, I would disagree that it is those that "know nothing about it" who are in err, but rather those who have not themselves consulted it.
jackketch
2007-09-15, 09:17
I guess I know nothing about it then...eh, Jack ? ;)
.
You're not claiming it was written directly by God or dictated by him but rather that it was inspired by him/the holy ghost.
Digital_Savior
2007-09-15, 09:42
Since you brought it up, you cite a few. In detail.
Put up or shut up.
I do believe I saw you once claim to be tolerant of other people's beliefs....to which I responded, "All but Christianity." I can't recall if I ever received a response from you or not. I guess this will suffice.
Also: http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Answer/fulfilled.html
And perhaps...
"Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." -- Zechariah 12:2-3
In August 2006, both Costa Rica and El-Salvador (http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/aug06.html#8-25-3) moved their embassies from Jerusalem, back to Tel Aviv. No nation on earth now has its embassy in Jerusalem, not even the US, even though it regards Jerusalem as the Israeli capital. This of course is a direct fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, for the Bible teaches us that the status of the city of Jerusalem would one day become a such a thorny issue, that it describes it as a "burdensome stone" and a "cup of trembling" for all people. During the tribulation period, the world's focus will be on Jerusalem, and at the time of the end, all nations on earth will come against Jerusalem to try and settle the problem once and for all. Source (http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/)
Digital_Savior
2007-09-15, 09:48
You're not claiming it was written directly by God or dictated by him but rather that it was inspired by him/the holy ghost.
"Dictated to" and "inspired by" are, in context, one and the same. To push this further would be nothing more than an act of semantical futility.
There are several scriptures wherein the authors were directly TOLD by God what to write. I have already listed a few, but there are many more. God DID inspire, dictate, prompt, and encourage the texts to be written as they were (in their original form, aside from the Torah, which was orally passed down for quite a while). At least according to the Bible.
jackketch
2007-09-15, 13:00
"Dictated to" and "inspired by" are, in context, one and the same. To push this further would be nothing more than an act of semantical futility.
Hardly, its actually the difference between theology(ie a serious scholarly scientific approach) and bibliology.
Those 'fundies' who claim divine authorship for the entirety of scripture are as guilty of lying and blaspheming as those who claim it is all a work of fiction.
AngryFemme
2007-09-15, 13:04
There are several scriptures wherein the authors were directly TOLD by God what to write.
Couldn't this also apply to the Koran, the Vedas, the Diamond Sutra and Avesta? These were all supposedly inspired by the word of God also. What gives the Holy Bible any more clout than these sacred religious texts, all claiming to be the divine word of God as translated by human beings?
--
It is nice to see you posting in here again Digital :)
inuteroteen
2007-09-15, 16:16
I think the point has been lost on most of the people here. Where can a protestant get off on telling the historical stewards of the religion that they're wrong and have been wrong for more than fifteen hundred years, more if you consider the Jews and the Tanakh. Wouldn't the Jews, being as they wrote the Old Testament/Tanakh have a better idea has to how to interpret the book. Think, who creates such a big problem with evolution/creationism, its not Catholics or Jews. It's really a joke how the Protestants can get their hands on this book, and in the face of thousands of years of history claim "This is the infallible word of God!"
And DS:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- John 1:1
Imagine where Theodore Geisel could have gone had he added a few words like this to his books.
Beautiful, beautiful example of circular logic. "The book is real, because it says so." Fundies, are a scourge, and a danger to a logical society. In the words of a man who has seen his church perverted "A fundamentalist can't admit that they are wrong, because indirectly they would be saying God is wrong." Jimmy Carter
FreedomHippie
2007-09-15, 18:32
It is true that the Bible was physically written by men, but the ideas, concepts, words, commandments, and instructions were all divinely inspired by God (according to Christianity). Here is why we think this:
Ok, there is proof that there have been books written that are not included in the bible. Who decides what writings were to be put in the bible, and what ones to be left out. How do we know we left out ones that were inspired by god, and have included ones that arent?
BrokeProphet
2007-09-15, 20:55
Unfortunately most 'fundies' actually know about as little as you seem to about the bloody book.
To be a mod....do I just have to agree with someones assessment and statement and insult them at the same time.
Not a tricky skill......just wondering if it is a requirement?
BrokeProphet
2007-09-15, 21:05
I guess I know nothing about it then...eh, Jack ? ;)
As you well know, Christians believe that God IS the word, and the Bible is simply the physical manifestation of Him (He in written form). Here is why we think this:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- John 1:1
It is true that the Bible was physically written by men, but the ideas, concepts, words, commandments, and instructions were all divinely inspired by God (according to Christianity). Here is why we think this:
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -- 2 Peter 1:21
Here are just a few examples of this happening:
To Ezekiel the Prophet: "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him." -- Ezekiel 1:1-3
To Paul the Apostle: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 14:37
(for more, simply reference Isaiah, Jeremiah, and any of the disciples of Christ)
The reason Christians believe that scripture is everlasting, inerrant, and cannot be changed in any way, shape, or form is because of these verses:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away." -- Mark 13:31
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth but the word of our God shall stand forever." -- Isaiah 40:8
“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." -- Proverbs 30:5-6
"All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17
In consulting the good book itself, I would disagree that it is those that "know nothing about it" who are in err, but rather those who have not themselves consulted it.
So you have made your argument concerning the dogmatic and literal interpretations of the divine rightous word of the lord penned by the divinly inspired, into the holiest of the holy books the bible.
I could not agree more. Which is why God is false. The bible is abound in contradictions and mistakes.
The scripture WAS in fact changed in the king james and other versions of the bible. The great flood is a story found in the epic of gilgamesh which is dated as being older. Many, many things in the biblical accounts are NOT at all refelcted in history...this is especially true in egypt.
There is also the whole realm of astrotheology which the bible takes no small part of. Is it mere coincidence the birth and resurection of the healer between heaven and earth is found throughout MANY cultures predating Jesus?
You then get into a thing where the bible says it is the infallible word of god and then find a passage that seems to be totally contradictory to the evidence or coincide with older religions. If that is true then you pretty much cannot trust the rest of the book can you? Or that god is even real. He cannot be wrong if he is real. He can shrink though.
The only real evidence the bible will ever have to back it up is the bible itself. It IS circular logic.
jackketch
2007-09-16, 03:45
Ok, there is proof that there have been books written that are not included in the bible. Who decides what writings were to be put in the bible, and what ones to be left out. How do we know we left out ones that were inspired by god, and have included ones that arent?
The story of the canon does indeed NOT inspire confidence.
jackketch
2007-09-16, 03:47
To be a mod....do I just have to agree with someones assessment and statement and insult them at the same time.
Not a tricky skill......just wondering if it is a requirement?
Nope, but it helps.