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View Full Version : Death by fire or death by ice? It's Ice


Dichromate
2008-12-18, 01:14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7785842.stm
The Consumer Price Index (CPI) dropped by 1.7% in November, according to the US Labor Department, following a decline of 1% in October.

October and November's falls were the two biggest since monthly data first started being recorded in 1947.

The fed has had interest rates lower than low for months now, dropping them again won't do jack.
This may well not actually be a proper fall in prices given how US CPI data is manipulated, but if the rate of inflation is falling at an increasing rate it will be happening for real sooner or later.

Deflation plus high levels of consumer debt = lulz

Prices falling sounds cool, except wages (or if wages are inflexible then employment) are also falling. Debt however is denominated in dollar terms so the "real" as opposed to nominal value of debt increases.
If the real value of debt is increasing(including the cost of maintaining it) and at best real incomes are remaining stagnant (sux2be laid off) guess what happens?
increased cost of servicing debt means less disposable income, less disposable income means less aggregate demand.

And less aggregate demand? well kiddies, that's going to cause a fall in the price level isn't it?

This is exactly what happened in the great depression except that in this case the debt level is even higher now then it was in the depths of the great depression - AFTER debt deflation occurred.
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/IMG0010_4969937.PNG

Okay - that first hump there in the early 30s... yeah... that's during the great depression AFTER deflation.

What makes this hilarious though is that it gets worse - just like back then, defaults are going to occur.
Only problem is that defaults mean fire sales, which drive down prices further (see the housing market), and even more importantly, defaults mean the collapse of financial institutions and contractions in the money supply (because of fractional reserve banking).
Bank runs back in fashion I guess.

Anyway - fall in the money supply means fall in prices - less money chasing all other things being equal a similar amount of goods.

The phase "cascading defaults" would do a pretty good job describing what will happen.

This is going to be worse than the great depression.

It'll probably take a while yet to get properly started, but unless the government changes tactics it could very well happen.

Blow to Pop
2008-12-18, 01:19
We are essentially bankrupt. We have an 11 trillion dollar debt, and have been deindustrialized, so we don't have the means to generate wealth to pay off the debt. I think a depression is almost a certainty, unfortunately. Stock up on food, guns & ammo. Also put in a garden this Spring if you have the space.

Dichromate
2008-12-18, 01:33
We are essentially bankrupt. We have an 11 trillion dollar debt, and have been deindustrialized, so we don't have the means to generate wealth to pay off the debt. I think a depression is almost a certainty, unfortunately. Stock up on food, guns & ammo. Also put in a garden this Spring if you have the space.

Nah- your government has an $11 trillion debt and a bunch of unfunded liabilities that bring the net present value of public sector 'debt' to around $50 trillion (yay for social security, medicare and medicaid).
Plus there's private debt.
Total debt is considerably worse $11 trillion.

E_bola
2008-12-18, 02:00
The government is trying to "fix" the economy with the same principals that got us into this mess:

Reckless spending, reckless lending, and bailing out failing companies.

The auto companies need to file chapter 11, fuck them. Their poor management and giving in to the UAW demands go them where they are.

People who can't pay a mortgage need to move the fuck out. And the government needs to stop using tax payer money to try to "help" these people. Sorry Barney Frank, not every American can be a homeowner.

By "helping" the government is simply rewarding poor managment, and homeowners delinquent on payments, and bankrupt financial institutions. The whole system is ass backwards.

SurahAhriman
2008-12-19, 21:44
You're assuming we'll actually have deflation.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-16-fuzzy-numbers

Here is something I consider a strong argument that the inflation rate is actually much higher than officially reported.

Chimro
2008-12-20, 06:53
This is what you get for not following God's law of forgiving all debt every seven years and not charging your kinsmen interest.

Dichromate
2008-12-20, 08:20
You're assuming we'll actually have deflation.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-16-fuzzy-numbers

Here is something I consider a strong argument that the inflation rate is actually much higher than officially reported.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

Totally, the numbers are pretty screwy.
But if the inflation rate is falling at what at quick glance appears to be an increasing rate it'll be in negative territory eventually. It's just matter of whether we're experiencing deflation now, or deflation in a couple of months.

EDIT: also, just another thing - if various fixed interest rates were built on the assumption of higher rates of inflation, and substantive falls in the rate of inflation seem to be apparent regardless of how fucked the stats are - we have more or less the same problem.
(if you're paying 13% on a loan, where originally inflation was 5% and inflation starts running at 1%, the *real* interest rate has gone from 7.62% to 11.88%)
It's just less bad then if prices go and start falling by 10%... (fancy 26.66% interest?)

Dichromate
2008-12-20, 08:37
The government is trying to "fix" the economy with the same principals that got us into this mess:

Reckless spending, reckless lending, and bailing out failing companies.

The auto companies need to file chapter 11, fuck them. Their poor management and giving in to the UAW demands go them where they are.

People who can't pay a mortgage need to move the fuck out. And the government needs to stop using tax payer money to try to "help" these people. Sorry Barney Frank, not every American can be a homeowner.

By "helping" the government is simply rewarding poor managment, and homeowners delinquent on payments, and bankrupt financial institutions. The whole system is ass backwards.

Yeah the system is fucked.
But a moratorium on debt is probably one possible way out of this mess. Horribly messy, but there isn't going to be much of a choice.