Why isn't eugenics being taken seriously?

[gforce]

ultimatly whether it's man made or natural our population will start to shrink unless we come up with some fantastic solution to all the worlds problems.

[darkwonders]

Originally Posted by pianoSpleen

I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I couldn't help thinking "this post is so full of shit it's just not funny".

I'm not one for flame wars, and I was a bit incoherent with the last one (admittedly drunk). But back to my points, whether or not I stated them coherently before.

1) I believe it's dangerous to view technology as beneficial. While there are many technologies I am glad I have incorporated into my life...I can't help but notice how ridiculous it is. Think about all the people that put time into things like arguing about which video game console is best, how many weeks should go by before you buy a new MP3 player, battle armor for troops. Think about it, do you really want your military to be indestructible? What the fuck are we going to do if we want to rise up and they call marines clad in bullet absorbent new magnoelectricnanofuckoff polymers. - Technology is only entrenching people deeper into a dependent, competitive life...while it increases the governments ability to monitor and control us. Geriatrics is a huge industry...why do we want old people?

2) In overpopulated societies, there will be an unequal distribution of resources. In Africa and parts of Asia, this may be as rudimentary as food or medicine, in more 'developed' societies it's changed into capitol.

While eugenics, in a firm definition, is not really going to change much...it's still a nicer term than genocide. We just need to get rid of this idea of "a right to life"

[gforce]

Originally Posted by darkwonders

I'm not one for flame wars, and I was a bit incoherent with the last one (admittedly drunk). But back to my points, whether or not I stated them coherently before.

1) I believe it's dangerous to view technology as beneficial. While there are many technologies I am glad I have incorporated into my life...I can't help but notice how ridiculous it is. Think about all the people that put time into things like arguing about which video game console is best, how many weeks should go by before you buy a new MP3 player, battle armor for troops. Think about it, do you really want your military to be indestructible? What the fuck are we going to do if we want to rise up and they call marines clad in bullet absorbent new magnoelectricnanofuckoff polymers. - Technology is only entrenching people deeper into a dependent, competitive life...while it increases the governments ability to monitor and control us. Geriatrics is a huge industry...why do we want old people?

i agree in most of this post, technology seems beneficial at first but in reality it is the cause of almost all our problems. Im sure many hunter gathers or early agrigarians where just as happy if not more happy with their lives than we are today even though they lacked what we would call technology.

[pianoSpleen]

Originally Posted by darkwonders

1) I believe it's dangerous to view technology as beneficial. While there are many technologies I am glad I have incorporated into my life...I can't help but notice how ridiculous it is. Think about all the people that put time into things like arguing about which video game console is best, how many weeks should go by before you buy a new MP3 player, battle armor for troops. Think about it, do you really want your military to be indestructible? What the fuck are we going to do if we want to rise up and they call marines clad in bullet absorbent new magnoelectricnanofuckoff polymers. - Technology is only entrenching people deeper into a dependent, competitive life...while it increases the governments ability to monitor and control us. Geriatrics is a huge industry...why do we want old people?

Ah, but that's the whole benefit of technology: we can use it when it suits us. If we couldn't it'd be useless. If you don't like it, you're perfectly able to go live out on a farm somewhere and have marginally more advanced technology than in the middle ages - and in the absence of a tractor, tell me you don't want one then. Millions of people do this now even in the most industrialised nations.

Yes, we're dependant on it, and we always will be until there's a collapse - which is why we're spending so much time and money to make sure there won't be one. I can kind of see where you're coming from though if for example there was a big enough economic problem that we couldn't supply electricity making all this useless, but to be honest that just destroys what we built up.

2) In overpopulated societies, there will be an unequal distribution of resources. In Africa and parts of Asia, this may be as rudimentary as food or medicine, in more 'developed' societies it's changed into capitol.

While eugenics, in a firm definition, is not really going to change much...it's still a nicer term than genocide. We just need to get rid of this idea of "a right to life"

That's not correct. The size of a country has little to do with poverty. There are sparsely populated poor nations and there are densely populated ones. Big deal. There's an unequal distribution of resources no matter what you do and that's why capitalism is good: it uses this to its economic advantage, even if it's fucking unfair.

[darkwonders]

Originally Posted by pianoSpleen

Ah, but that's the whole benefit of technology: we can use it when it suits us. If we couldn't it'd be useless. If you don't like it, you're perfectly able to go live out on a farm somewhere and have marginally more advanced technology than in the middle ages - and in the absence of a tractor, tell me you don't want one then. Millions of people do this now even in the most industrialised nations.

Yes, we're dependant on it, and we always will be until there's a collapse - which is why we're spending so much time and money to make sure there won't be one. I can kind of see where you're coming from though if for example there was a big enough economic problem that we couldn't supply electricity making all this useless, but to be honest that just destroys what we built up.




That's not correct. The size of a country has little to do with poverty. There are sparsely populated poor nations and there are densely populated ones. Big deal. There's an unequal distribution of resources no matter what you do and that's why capitalism is good: it uses this to its economic advantage, even if it's fucking unfair.

- I have made the mistake of not being specific with regard to technology. The distinction that needs to be made is between capitalistic technologies for profit, and beneficial technologies (solely for benefit [in theory]). In a competitive society, obviously some people win, and many people loose. The point is not so much that technology exists, it's how and why it's produced.

I see little utilitarian value to most of our technology, they exist merely as a perverted social symbol to fuel competition. There is also the notion that one cannot miss something that doesn't exist. Why not, instead of constantly trying to advance technology and consumerism, we focus more on trying to have an even dispersal of technology. Obviously it's impossible for everyone in the world to have everything they desire, or even most of it. The global trade system is dependent on this hierarchy of capitol.

And who looses, and why do they loose? Maybe a capitalistic system would work if it was fair and balanced, but how can you blame those that have been disadvantaged, forced to assimilate. Do you wonder why more black people are in prison in the USA then in College, why the vast majority of many indigenous people in colonized worlds live below the poverty line, why entire sections of Africa are corrupt and starving hell holes? Hell, people starve to death in the USA and western Europe. None of it has to do with them not trying hard enough, it has to do to wildly unfair balances of power and wealth.

And to bring it back to eugenics, because we are pretty far away from that now (and i'm sure it's my fault)...I will invoke Gramsci's concept of hegemony. Expecting people to have a great ideological and economic reversal, to somehow right the system through a change in though and practice is impossible. It will never happen. There is too many people set in a very flawed system to ever make such an impact. That is why eugenics/genocide is in order. It's not a matter of racial cleansing, but burning everything down like a prairie or forest fire, so we can start green and new.

One last invocation, Hakim Bey this time. I'll paraphrase the metaphor because I'm too pressed for time to look it up in T.A.Z...Society is a lawn; sometimes it needs to be mowed and the weeds pulled out.


And thanks to everyone that have come into this thread, I know it's now big but I've enjoyed the discussion so far.

[Ziggurat]

Three things:

1) I can't believe some of you are falling for this bullshit. "Oh yes, instead of learning to co-exist let's kill off the people that we don't like." If some of you are ACTUALLY for this, I say we start with you and the OP.

2) If we cause so many problems among ourselves for the environment and this planet, then why not eliminate the entire human race all together? Hmm?

3) If you're with the OP, you're an egotistical nutjob...you're not intelligent, you're brainwashed.

[darkwonders]

Ahh ziggurat, you are a wise one to talk about bringing people together...after all it was you who famously united totse and Bill Keller with your messages of hope and peace was it not?

While I am glad you have come to this thread, please try to give some sort of an argument in the future. And in your lovely first point, you have (perhaps mistakingly?) supported eugenics. You want to kill me because I support eugenics...I do hope you see the irony.


As for the only real point you have made...number 2. Why not just wipe out humanity completely. It's an interesting, and somewhat attractive, idea. However, I believe you're missing the crux. It's not necessarily to only preserve the environment, it's to create a sustainable world of affluent and peaceful peoples.

I simply love your notion of learning to coexist...it's so...cozy, comely. But I'm afraid you haven't paid much attention to the world...to our current state of affairs.

It's almost like you believe in some sort of progress. A lovely consequence of larger and larger population coupled with improved technology is the increased efficacy of war. And then when you through a few hegemonic revolutions and Ideological State Apparatuses in, well you should see where it's going by now.

[WorBlux]

Originally Posted by darkwonders

I'm kind of getting tired of people proclaiming technological advances as signs of progress. There is nothing inherently beneficial about technology, it just makes things more complicated.

As for Japan, who the fuck would want to live there. There is a reason why Japanese society is so structured, because it has to be. The gaps between Japan's lower class and middle class (basically those that can actually afford a tiny piece of land somewhere and those that can't) is huge. There is entire villages in Osaka of bums living in little self made huts. Not to mention, Japan has a terrible government that almost borders on communism (yes I said it).

I blame religion (especially Catholicism).

Nothing benificial about technology? I hope then you don't benifit from living without the fear of smallpox, typhoid, malaria or polio. That you con' befifit or know someone who hav benifitted due to surgery make possible by advances in drug technology. I hope that you benefit from having a powerfull computer that can fit in the palm of your hand and retrieve information for you withing minutes that would have taken hours and days not twenty years ago. Are you saying you don't benifit from cheaper consumer goods made possible by automated factories and effecient reliable methods of transportation? Are you saying you don't benifit from the fact that less than 0.5% of the population is engaged in food production, freeing up the time of others to persue more intelectual and societal persuits?

Your comments about Japan I agree with, who the fuck would want to liver there? Not I.

I blame religion to, especiially catholocism for perserving the knowledge and learning of the romans and greeks though the dark ages. I blame them for being the only stable respected force during the twelth centery, that it felt compelled to protect europe from the muslim agression that had but wiped out, pillaged and destroyed the previously predominately christian middle east. I blame catholicism for the philosophy of natural law, and the philosophies of locke, voltaire, and paine that laid the groundwork for the modern day representative government. I blame the catholic church for buildng the first great universities of europe and for commisioning some of the greatest artist to create the greatest art known to man. I blame the church fro transforming us westerners from a bunch of serf/slaves and a few lords to a free and enlightened society.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by darkwonders

Ahh ziggurat, you are a wise one to talk about bringing people together...after all it was you who famously united totse and Bill Keller with your messages of hope and peace was it not?

While I am glad you have come to this thread, please try to give some sort of an argument in the future. And in your lovely first point, you have (perhaps mistakingly?) supported eugenics. You want to kill me because I support eugenics...I do hope you see the irony.


As for the only real point you have made...number 2. Why not just wipe out humanity completely. It's an interesting, and somewhat attractive, idea. However, I believe you're missing the crux. It's not necessarily to only preserve the environment, it's to create a sustainable world of affluent and peaceful peoples.

I simply love your notion of learning to coexist...it's so...cozy, comely. But I'm afraid you haven't paid much attention to the world...to our current state of affairs.

It's almost like you believe in some sort of progress. A lovely consequence of larger and larger population coupled with improved technology is the increased efficacy of war. And then when you through a few hegemonic revolutions and Ideological State Apparatuses in, well you should see where it's going by now.

I was being MEAN to you dipshit, stating the irony that you support this shit, yet you'd probably be killed yourself it it ever went into effect...second of all stop speaking like your some high and mighty prophet of some sort, get the fuck out. The reason I despise Bill Keller is because of how he believes (and preaches) that people from different religions shouldn't inter-marry and that it's impossible for them to have a working relationship. Other than that, he's fine with me. You talk like you're on acid. I know the current state of affairs buddy, and you seem to be giving up on the world by looking for a quick fix. The right thing is never the easiest to do. I never said coexisting was easy, so don't make it appear as if I'm trying to say that.

PS - Please give yourself a saltwater enema.
PPS - If I ever see you in real life your jaw will be 3 inches to the left...it's people like YOU that make this world bad. The reason nobody supports this is because we all know it's wrong and NOT the right way to solve our problems.

EDIT: Yes, blame ALL Catholics, the entire religion, for things people who HAPPEN to be Catholic do, fucking Nazis.

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by darkwonders

I don't have a problem with killing undesirables, but I suppose we could do the humane thing and just prohibit people from having kids.

Nobody should have power over anybody else, unless that person is directly causing harm to society. How would choose who is undesirable?

The only way is a complete system crash. Maybe this could happen naturally, because of anything such as global natural disaster (a poleshift would accomplish that), or the inevitable cultural collapses that strike every empire. Even our modern ones aren't safe from those.

That, or mass suicide. But I dont' think killing others is right.