Buncha Pussies

[DerDrache]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/...itary_suicides

Granted, the article says that they only have suicide records dating back to 1990, but still...why the hell are soldiers killing themselves? When you think back to just about all of our past wars...people were dying left and right. In this war, you maybe hear about a couple deaths every few weeks.

Are we just turning into a bunch of pussies, or what?

I remember when I learned about the draft in WW2 and Vietnam, and that shit scared the shit out of me. Well, I consider if there was a draft now, and although I'd rather not give up what doing now...I don't think I'd be particularly worried. (I was actually interested in joining the Marines, though...whatever, I didn't, so it is just speculation.)

Thoughts?

EDIT: I looked up some figures. Apparently there have been 4000 US Armed Forces casualties since 2003. In the Gulf War there were just about 150 US casualties. In the Korean War, 169,365 US casualties. In Vietnam, 58,000 casualties and aroud 300,000 WIA. In WW2, 450,400.

[Rust]

Thoughts? Since you haven't provided any figures about the incidence of suicides in the past U.S. conflicts, we can't conclude that "we are turning into a bunch of" anything, much less "pussies".

Even if you had such figures, an increase might be explained by issues in methodology and reporting of the statistics. For example, a plausible explanation could be that suicide has become less of a taboo in society and therefore suicides are being reported more often than before - or even that soldiers are considering it more often than before because it's less of a taboo/shame.

Another potential explanation could be that the Army is now more able to keep up with the deaths of its soldiers than before. So if, lets say, a soldier committed suicide in the field, it could be easier to notify that it has happened and easier to keep track of the soldiers and why they are dying.

Another point is that if you look at the end of the article, it states:

"Based on numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the VA estimates that 18 veterans a day — or 6,500 a year — take their own lives, but that number includes vets from all wars."

Which seems to imply that soldiers from all wars, not just this recent one, have a high incident of suicides, thus suggesting that it has less to do with us becoming pussies and more with the gruesome reality of war.

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by Rust

Thoughts? Since you haven't provided any figures about the incidence of suicides in the past U.S. conflicts, we can't conclude that "we are turning into a bunch of" anything, much less "pussies".

That's what I already said. You do know what "Suicide rates have only been recorded since 1990" means, don't you? Does that mean you can't form a thought, or did you just want to reiterate the obvious?

For example, a plausible explanation could be that suicide has become less of a taboo in society and therefore suicides are being reported more often than before - or even that soldiers are considering it more often than before because it's less of a taboo/shame.

Yep, that's a possibility.

"Based on numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the VA estimates that 18 veterans a day — or 6,500 a year — take their own lives, but that number includes vets from all wars."

Which seems to imply that soldiers from all wars, not just this recent one, have a high incident of suicides, thus suggesting that it has less to do with us becoming pussies and more with the gruesome reality of war.

How many of those veterans are from the Iraq or Gulf wars? Most of them would be from Korea or Vietnam. Not to mention, coping with post-traumatic stress for decades is quite different from having to deal with stressful, traumatic memories for a few years (or less, since it's unclear when the recent suicides took place). I definitely want more information on this though. There's a constant feel that people here are turning into big, blubbering pussies, so if that's the case, I'd have to wonder if it's affecting soldiers too.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

That's what I already said. You do know what "Suicide rates have only been recorded since 1990" means, don't you? Does that mean you can't form a thought, or did you just want to reiterate the obvious?

No, actually, you explicitly called them pussies in the title of the thread. You then implied it again, only this time through a question to conveniently leave yourself plausible deniability.

In any case, I was reiterating that fact because I felt wasn't that obvious, given the title of this thread.

How many of those veterans are from the Iraq or Gulf wars? Most of them would be from Korea or Vietnam.

Yes... and that's precisely why that doesn't help the idea that "we're turning into pussies". If veterans of wars that were fought decades ago have such a high incidence of suicide, then that suggests we aren't "turning into pussies". Either we/you have always been pussies (or at least, for generations now), or this has nothing to do with the idiotic, simplistic, childish description of soldiers as "pussies".

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by Rust

No, actually, you explicitly called them pussies in the title of the thread. You then implied it again, only this time through a question to conveniently leave yourself plausible deniability.

In any case, I was reiterating that fact because I felt wasn't that obvious, given the title of this thread.

Would a question mark have made you feel better?

Bottom line: I specifically said that old rates weren't recorded. That's all there is to it.

Yes... and that's precisely why that doesn't help the idea that "we're turning into pussies". If veterans of wars that were fought decades ago have such a high incidence of suicide, then that suggests we aren't "turning into pussies". Either we/you have always been pussies (or at least, for generations now), or this has nothing to do with the idiotic, simplistic, childish description of soldiers as "pussies".

People killing themselves after decades of post-traumatic stress, depression, and who knows what else is not the same as people killing themselves sometime within these 5 years encompassing the (comparatively tame) Iraq War.

But alas, I'm not convinced that they are indeed "pussies", hence why I made the thread. I know there are a few soldiers on Totse, so they could perhaps give some insight. Not everything posted in this forum is a debate. There's plausible deniability because I'm not claiming anything.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Would a question mark have made you feel better?

Yes, a question mark would have been great!

Bottom line: I specifically said that old rates weren't recorded. That's all there is to it.

Bottom line: nobody said otherwise. I said 'that because that was true, we can't really conclude anything'. That's it; and I said it both to make the completely speculative nature of your request more obvious, and because even though you did say "old rates weren't recorded" it still seemed you were pushing a conclusion that they were pussies, given the title and the leading "question".

People killing themselves after decades of post-traumatic stress, depression, and who knows what else is not the same as people killing themselves sometime within these 5 years encompassing the (comparatively tame) Iraq War.

Of course, except since we don't know what the suicide rates were immediately after the wars in Vietnam and Korea we can't conclude that they were different - which your objection requires. This is all we have, and it certainly doesn't help the case of any ignorant motherfucker who thinks these men are pussies.

Not everything posted in this forum is a debate.

Indeed, I'm still surprised how you manage you turn it into one, given that pretty much every single thing I said was factually accurate!

1. We can't conclude anything because we don't have the figures.

2. There are many possible explanations for a difference in figures if there was one.

3. The figures we do have don't help the "theory" that these men and women are "pussies".

[Howard Radford]

Well, of course more military personal would be considering suicide, war has gotten alot worse then it use to be 2000 years ago the worst thing that could happen to you in war is you get stabbed to death, now we have biological warfare, nuclear warfare, better torture tactics, what have you, sometimes suicide is the better option, especially if there is no way out. There is nothing shameful about killing yourself before you give up information to the enemy.

[vazilizaitsev89]

due to the fact that they have IEDs exploding around them, not being able to decipher friend from foe.

War isn't a simple matter anymore.

in simpler times, everyone had a uniform, everyone waved their own flags. its easy to understand how soldiers can kill themselves. There is also the fact that many of them go through mental breakdowns.

Everyone says that when some pansy-ass civilian kills himself everyone is "aww boo hoo." But no one gives a shit when a soldier does it, a soldier who actually has a reason. Such as seeing his best friends' death or other soldiers limbs being blown off.

Whereas some piece of shit emo kills himself. That's the pansy, not the soldier.

How about you go over there and see how it is?

[launchpad]

It was there in the past, it just went mostly unreported as 'shellshock'. Due to the huge breadth of media today soldiers get to relive their tours of duty every time they turn on a T.V. read a paper etc.

My grandfather fought up the Italian peninsula and when he came back everybody knew not to talk about the war with him. Sometimes he'd tell stories when his war buddies went over to the house, but then again sometimes he'd have long periods of depression - also he drank.

See the difference? Now it's acceptable to talk about the problem and try to address it, back in the 40's men didn't want people to know about it so they hid it from everyone..It was still there though.

[Star Wars Fan]

As launchpad said, it was reported back then. However, the incidents of 'shellshock' was VERY well-known and noted in documentaries and reports of Allied Soldiers, IIRC Especially the US troops fighting in the Pacific islands.