What are we responsible for?

[DerDrache]

Since we are the product of both our genes and our environment, to what extent can we be responsible for our actions?

That's to the say, the person who is highly motivated for success is that way because his mind developed that way. The person who is a motivationless louse is that way because his mind developed that way. Even the murderer or rapist is that way because they've developed that way.

Of course, barring mental disorders, most people have enough cognitive ability to understand the law, and understand that their needs may violate it. They may want to rape, but they can usually channel that energy elsewhere to avoid legal (or moral) consequences.

But alas, what if someone can't bring themselves to channel their illegal/amoral actions elsewhere? From a philosophical, psychological, and legal standpoint, are they really responsible? It seems to me that our mental processes are responsible for every single thing we do, but we have little to no control over our mental processes, or how they came to be.

And I suppose a simplification of this is basically the question of the drug addict who goes to buy more drugs. Is he responsible, or is the drug that is affecting his mental processes responsible? Is he responsible for initially taking the drug, or is that a result of uncontrollable mental processes too?

When responding, please be clear about whether your addressing the philosophical, psychological, or legal part of this issue. (ie. If you think that someone can't be held responsible for what they do, what is the role of the legal system in dealing with such people?)

Lastly, I realize this is a loaded question, as I'm essentially asking whether we biologically have free will. So, discuss away.

[grvdigr69]

everything
existentialism ftw

[the_coup_d'etat]

You are responsible for everything you do. Every human being makes choices and has to deal with the consequences, both good and bad that resulted from their decision.

In the case of your drug addict he is fully responsible for everything that might happen from said addiction.

1. He made the choice to do the drug multiple times to get addicted.

2. He broke the law, so if he was jailed he would be dealing with a consequence of his actions.

3. He is most likely broke from having to buy drugs.

4. His health is probably deteroriated by this point in time.

There are more potential consequences but it all stemmed from the individuals choices.

Do you follow?

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by the_coup_d'etat

In the case of your drug addict he is fully responsible for everything that might happen from said addiction.

1. He made the choice to do the drug multiple times to get addicted.

Well, that's the topic at hand. Since we aren't neutral, unbiased, impartial, unimpressionable beings, how can you say any choice is truly our own, at least in a philosophical and scientific sense.

Legally, I agree that people need to be locked up (and reformed ideally, though public safety is #1 priority) when they violate laws, but as far as true responsibility for actions...I'm not seeing it. We're essentially hollow vessels, and we're dictated by mental processes that we have no say in.

2. He broke the law, so if he was jailed he would be dealing with a consequence of his actions.

3. He is most likely broke from having to buy drugs.

4. His health is probably deteroriated by this point in time.

There are more potential consequences but it all stemmed from the individuals choices.

Do you follow?

How does this relate to the topic?

[the_coup_d'etat]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Well, that's the topic at hand. Since we aren't neutral, unbiased, impartial, unimpressionable beings, how can you say any choice is truly our own, at least in a philosophical and scientific sense.

Why did you make this thread? Go for the most basic reason why and you just answered your question.

You might also want to see existentialism.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Legally, I agree that people need to be locked up (and reformed ideally, though public safety is #1 priority) when they violate laws, but as far as true responsibility for actions...I'm not seeing it. We're essentially hollow vessels, and we're dictated by mental processes that we have no say in.

The key here is that they are your mental processes. You seem to like the infant science of psychology, so look up cognitive therapy.

As for responsibility, we need to define it first.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...responsibility

We can both agree on that defintion, right?

Once we can agree on a defintion, then we can proceed.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

How does this relate to the topic?

Well if you read my post you'd know why.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Responsibility, choices, and consequences go hand in hand. If you get a good grade who is accountable for getting that grade? If you flunk a test, who is accountable for that flunking grade?

[dagnabitt]

I dont believe people are ultimately responsible. I believe the notion of responsibility is rooted in our judgement of others - condemnation of others more precisely, through morality. Its how we justify our own precedent - but is essentially an act of will and domination. The metaphysics of free will are fallacous.

Pantheism, non-dualism, postmodernism FTW.

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by the_coup_d'etat

Why did you make this thread?

Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Law, Historical Debate, and War.

The key here is that they are your mental processes.

Well, my position, which I'm quite sure I said at least twice, is that "they are mental processes over which you have no control." In other words, I don't think that ownership makes you responsible for something. You can only be responsible for things which you have control over.

How I've arrived at my opinion:

1) We have no control over how our mental processes develop. It's all a combination of genetic and environmental information.

2) Our mental processes dictate our behavior.

So, assuming you agree, the question is: Do we have or can we gain control over our mental processes, such that our decisions are purely objective, and have no biases? I mean, the way I see it, every fabric of our being has been instilled in us from birth. Why don't we (most of us) go and rape women when we're horny, or have sexual relations with young people, or kill when we want what someone else has? Why do we raise our hand when we have a question? Why do we have to cover our genitals? All of these things and more have been fused to our very being, so...at what point can you hold someone responsible for anything?

If someone is missing the link that says "kids are off limits", or "nudity is shameful", they may end up being pedophiles or nudists. I think that whatever they chose, it's going to be out of their conscious control. Someone pedophile with a low drive for such activity can perhaps resist, and that's a result of how he is wired. A pedophile with a high drive for such activity perhaps is unable to resist, and once again, that's a result of his wiring.

Anyways I don't really expect for us to arrive at an answer, but people can bring some interesting ideas to the table. This is all just food for thought.

Well if you read my post you'd know why.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Responsibility, choices, and consequences go hand in hand. If you get a good grade who is accountable for getting that grade? If you flunk a test, who is accountable for that flunking grade?

Again, I don't see the relevance. If anything this will just detract from an already complicated subject. Someone getting shot is insignificant if all you're asking is "Who pulled that trigger?".

[the_coup_d'etat]

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Law, Historical Debate, and War.

You didn't answer the question.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Well, my position, which I'm quite sure I said at least twice, is that "they are mental processes over which you have no control." In other words, I don't think that ownership makes you responsible for something. You can only be responsible for things which you have control over..

Remember that line in relation to mental processes.

How I've arrived at my opinion:

Originally Posted by DerDrache

1) We have no control over how our mental processes develop. It's all a combination of genetic and environmental information.

Do you remember what I told you to look up in my post, but you cut it out when you quoted me? Cognitive Therapy, you just found a way to control your mental processes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogniti...ioural_therapy

Originally Posted by DerDrache

2) Our mental processes dictate our behavior.

So, assuming you agree, the question is: Do we have or can we gain control over our mental processes, such that our decisions are purely objective, and have no biases? I mean, the way I see it, every fabric of our being has been instilled in us from birth. Why don't we (most of us) go and rape women when we're horny, or have sexual relations with young people, or kill when we want what someone else has? Why do we raise our hand when we have a question? Why do we have to cover our genitals? All of these things and more have been fused to our very being, so...at what point can you hold someone responsible for anything?

A. Yes you can control your mental processes, but you skirted that part of my post.

B. Most of us do not want to go to jail because we know that we are responsible for our actions and the consequences of our actions.

C. Because we want to/do not want to. The same reason you made this thread and the same reason you did not answer my question.

D. Because mot people are embarrassed. I personally camp a lot and bathe when ever I have spare water, so I'm not afraid to be seen in the nude, but once again most of us won't go streaking because we know we are responsible for the consequences of streaking.

E. Anytime some one takes an action, they are responsible for it and the consequences that follow. Look at The Nuremberg Trials for examples of this.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

If someone is missing the link that says "kids are off limits", or "nudity is shameful", they may end up being pedophiles or nudists. I think that whatever they chose, it's going to be out of their conscious control. Someone pedophile with a low drive for such activity can perhaps resist, and that's a result of how he is wired. A pedophile with a high drive for such activity perhaps is unable to resist, and once again, that's a result of his wiring.

They are responsible for their actions, just like both of us are responsible for ours. You have a choice either way.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Again, I don't see the relevance. If anything this will just detract from an already complicated subject. Someone getting shot is insignificant if all you're asking is "Who pulled that trigger?".

Who pulled the trigger is the person accountable for shooting the other person. You keep skirting the issue of who is responsible and try to blame it on something else. Here is a good link on personal responsibility:

On the law side of the issue you should look up a type of defense known as the "Abused/Battered Child Defense". It rarely works, but it might add some discussion to this thread.

It has already been stated twice but you should look up Existentialism.

[0ttre]

Originally Posted by the_coup_d'etat

You didn't answer the question.

Not getting involved in the discussion, and he can answer for himself, but why would you look sarcastic? Isn't it obvious to you that the answer was self-respect?

[the_coup_d'etat]

Originally Posted by 0ttre

Not getting involved in the discussion

Then why did you even post?

Originally Posted by 0ttre

but why would you look sarcastic?

Because he failed to answer the question. He has habits of doing this and cutting entire parts of quotes out so he doesn't have to answer to the points/counterpoints they make.

Originally Posted by 0ttre

Isn't it obvious to you that the answer was self-respect?

Originally Posted by the_coup_d'etat

Why did you make this thread? Go for the most basic reason why and you just answered your question.

Go back and read a little. Self respect is not the most basic reason.