Predestination

shadow operative · #1 2008-07-10, 13:47

What's your take on predestination, i can see how everyone is affected by the experiences that happen to them and everything is a long line of cause and effect so hypothetically if you understood everything that has happened in the past you could work out what is going to happen.

KikoSanchez · #2 2008-07-10, 13:52

I take it as true, in that there is no free will. Not that there is a god deciding our "fate" or anything, it is just simple physics playing itself out to the mathematical conclusion.

veraphilia · #3 2008-07-10, 23:44

The present is not a product of the future, as predestination suggests. Instead the present is the product of the past and of itself. As context is always evolving, the present is always novel. Precisely is the reason we cannot always look to the past for answers in the present.

We certainly do have freewill, as people have demonstrated throughout history that they are capable of a complete behaviorial/ideological makeover. Our behavior is not absolutely limited by our behavior in the past.

If one believes in predestination then they must consider the supposed purpose to babies being born with terminal illnesses, or to the phenomena of good people experiencing chronic tragedy and the bad person experiencing chronic fortune.

shadow operative · #4 2008-07-11, 16:50

I don't think predestination necessitates purpose, it just means that theres a lack of free will everything is determined as it is a response to previous actions. You have beliefs due to previous experiences which happened because of something else which happened because of something else this can be followed back to creation/the big bang/ the aliens making us in labs, however due to these beliefs you will react a certain way in situations for example the belief that murder is wrong will mean you don't kill in the future.

veraphilia · #5 2008-07-11, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow operative

predestination ... means that theres a lack of free will everything is determined as it is a response to previous actions. You have beliefs due to previous experiences which happened because of something else which happened because of something else ... however due to these beliefs you will react a certain way in situations for example the belief that murder is wrong will mean you don't kill in the future.

Not necessarily, I believe murder is wrong, however if I was in a scenario where it was my life or an armed thief, I would absolutely murder. I believe many others would attest to this as well. What your argument doesn't take into account is novel situations where our past has no direct experience. You underestimate the power of the situation in human behavior.

So predestination suggests that everything is determined? Determined by what?

5MOK420 · #6 2008-07-12, 09:57

i can either end my life, or do great things with it. at any pace and at any time. i am not controlled. i am not judged by some higher being, i am judged by my own self. predestination comes with the belief that you are toetagged the day you became a little chromosome and im glad to say i would like no part of that. predestination also means that there is a plan for everyone, why do great kind people die and get murdered if this plan is for the greater good? ill tell you why... because there is none. evolution is our goal

shadow operative · #7 2008-07-12, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5MOK420

i can either end my life, or do great things with it. at any pace and at any time. i am not controlled. i am not judged by some higher being, i am judged by my own self. predestination comes with the belief that you are toetagged the day you became a little chromosome and im glad to say i would like no part of that. predestination also means that there is a plan for everyone, why do great kind people die and get murdered if this plan is for the greater good? ill tell you why... because there is none. evolution is our goal

No i'm not arguing about predestination as in God made us with a set path, i'm saying that if you looked at everything that has ever happened like literally everything and understood it completely it would be possible to work out everything that will happen as everything which happens is a series of exceptionally complicated events, no plans or gods just a lack of free will.

5MOK420 · #8 2008-07-12, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow operative

No i'm not arguing about predestination as in God made us with a set path, i'm saying that if you looked at everything that has ever happened like literally everything and understood it completely it would be possible to work out everything that will happen as everything which happens is a series of exceptionally complicated events, no plans or gods just a lack of free will.

so everything that happens right now is just some tiny significant prelude to the future? id rather think that whatever i do is because I want and choose to do it. i do what i do and i live in the present, there is no reason to worry that you have no control. grab a gun and go to a crowded intersection, pull the trigger and see the bodies fall. if this is some divine plan then i want nothing to do with it.

Vanhalla · #9 2008-07-12, 20:25

The universe consists of cycles and patterns building off of each other. Once one cycle completes, that cycle is the foundation for the smaller cycle which continues above it.
Now you get to questions like why are these cycles the way they are?
Because each one of us, saying I want to do this, i want to think about that, are creating the necessary patterns right now.
That is what Consciousness does, it creates.
Being that all of our consciousnesses are connected and I would argue that fundementally the structure of matter IS Consciousness, we are all Co-Creating reality in every moment. We are all part of One ginormous system. And yes this system has a schedule that determines which aspect of Creation will be set into motion based on all of the motion already churning.

xxombie · #10 2008-07-13, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow operative

No i'm not arguing about predestination as in God made us with a set path, i'm saying that if you looked at everything that has ever happened like literally everything and understood it completely it would be possible to work out everything that will happen as everything which happens is a series of exceptionally complicated events, no plans or gods just a lack of free will.

To some degree, this is probably possible. Well beyond our ability, but possible.

If you were to just sit down and lay out all the facts, everything that has happened in your, and analyzed them without bias, you could probably predict the following chain of events.

But I think doing something like this would require someone with intelligence beyond human capacity.

In a way though, that's hypocritical of the theory itself. Because if you were able to predict the future, then you'd have the choice to stray from what you predicted, therefore there is no set path for us to follow in the beginning.

So what I'm saying, is that it may be possible to predict future events based on the past, but we have the free will to change our own futures.