A strange phenomenon

[Hare_Geist]

Whenever we hear a word from our native language for the first time, as soon as we discover its definition, not only does that definition stick in our mind, but whenever we hear the word uttered again, we instantly associate it with its intended meaning. Why, then, when we learn a foreign language, do we have much more difficulty in associating a foreign word with its definition whenever we hear it uttered by someone other than ourselves, even if the definition is stuck in our mind?

Furthermore, I have noticed that, for me at least, this difficulty varies depending on the foreign language under consideration. For obvious reasons, it is a lot less difficult to associate the word with its definition when the language is closer to your own. I can make the association with more ease in German than in French, for example. Well, I say “obvious reasons”, and it is obvious that making the association is harder in foreign languages, yet although it is obvious that this is the way things are, I don’t believe it is so obvious why this is the way things are.

I can understand the difficulty with understanding sentences, since sentence structures can vary greatly from what a person is used to in his own language. I figured that one possible explanation is very similar to the difficulty with sentence structures, namely, that unlike with foreign languages, we know the general forms of words in our native language and how to distinguish them from one another when he hear them uttered within a sentence. However, the difficulty here is with distinguishing words from one another, which is preliminary to, but not the same as, associating a word with its definition. Trying to distinguish words certainly may contribute to troubles making associations, but I doubt it explains the problem or contributes to the difficulty to any great degree.

So we are right back where we started. Say you are an Englishman learning French. You learn the definition of a French word in English, that is to say, the word’s definition is given in English, just like with any English words you learn. Yet when you hear the French word said, you don’t instantly associate it with its definition, like you do with English words, but have to think for a split-second beforehand or even struggle, depending on the foreign language. Does anyone have any clue why this is?

[The Methematician]

Err...cos you learned it the wrong way.

I mean, you learn your native language directly by seeing, listening and doing, but when you learn foreign language you relied on a string of translated text in your native language, so I think what happens in your brain is :

french words--->english ---> sense

while english can be directly translated into "sense" in your brain. No way to be sure...

Unless you can unlearn french, then relearn it directly like a french baby would via real world interaction rather than reading a book....Just my thought....

Make sense to you ??

[Hare_Geist]

Originally Posted by The Methematician

french words--->english ---> sense

while english can be directly translated into "sense" in your brain. No way to be sure...

I already went over why I thought this explanation doesn't work.

You learn the definition of a French word in English, that is to say, the word’s definition is given in English, just like with any English words you learn. Yet when you hear the French word said, you don’t instantly associate it with its definition, like you do with English words, but have to think for a split-second beforehand or even struggle, depending on the foreign language.

I can't see any difference between an adult learning that "Dunkelheit" means "darkness" and an adult learning "blackness" or "dimness" means "darkness", and yet we struggle with the one but not the other. Personally, I'm leaning toward a psychological explanation: when we look up the definition of a new English word, we feel relaxed and confident, but when we try to learn a new language's vocabulary, we expect it to be difficult and expect ourselves to have difficulty remembering the definitions, that is to say, we set ourselves up to fail. Of course, I have nothing to back this up and wouldn't be surprised if it is completely wrong.

[static_void]

I don't exactly have a PhD in linguistics, but I suppose the explanation would be something like this...

When we hear a word we've never heard before and learn the definition in our native language, the definition is associated with heaps of memories and connections, and is thus retained quite well. If you're learning a word in another language, many of these memories and connections simply do not exist in your head in any language besides your native language. When learning vocabulary, it's essential to associate the words with your experiences and environment. This is much easier when the word happens to belong to your native language because you have so many associations with the subject the word pertains to or its synonyms.

Simple spelling and pronunciation play a role as well. When a word has a pronunciation and spelling that is quite simply foreign to you, it's a lot harder to make associations. I'll pull out a random word here, "Sozioökonomische" (socioeconomics). That word just doesn't look "normal" to an English speaker. It doesn't fall into any patterns of English vocabulary (well, similar structure), so once again, associations are hard to make unless you already have a large German vocabulary.

ed: I've basically rephrased what the Methemetician wrote, so I suppose the fact that you "already went over why this definition doesn't work" applies to me as well... but really, this is the best reason I could come up with. There's no simple answer to questions like these.

[BSK]

Originally Posted by static_void

There's no simple answer to questions like these.

in fact there is. but you can´t answer this with linguistuics only. artificial intelligence has had some good approaches to explain languages. but if I explained it this way we had to make sure people who take place in the following discussion had some basic knowledge.

first aspect is, probability. let´s explain this with simple math of mathematical problems. there´s a much higher chance that you hear "2 times 2 is 4" than "435.992 + 31.3131". and there are many more aspects in life that this will get connected to. dishes, cars, couples on holiday, attacking jets etc etc.
but if you then learn a new word for this, different connections will occur. and not only that, there will be kind of a bottleneck.

second aspect is, what we call a habit, is a robust and stable system in our brain. whatever we learn, whatever we memorize, is because a perception got connected with emotions, positive or negative. to change this system we either have to have very strong emotions, or reasonable emotions with a higher occurrence. but even then, our sense for smelling is creating the strongest and long lasting memories, which you can´t change by words you hear. when you smell tasty apples you will always think in your mind "hmmmmm, appleeeeeeeees!".

oh and "Sozioökonomische" would probably be translated as "socioeconomical" ..

[The Methematician]

I'll go over your other point later when I have more time, but will address this first....

Originally Posted by Hare_Geist

I can't see any difference between an adult learning that "Dunkelheit" means "darkness" and an adult learning "blackness" or "dimness" means "darkness", and yet we struggle with the one but not the other.

Which appear to me as "sense". An easier example would be the word :

"fuck you".

To a person growing up using english as native language, the word "fuck you", will instantly be translated as insult while a non english speaker, a chinese for example, would interpret it maybe as "intercourse you", first before thinking of the offensive implication.....or whatever translated word for fuck he came across the first time....

while an native english speaker would never think of "fuck you" in the sense of "intercourse/sexual intimacy you" at all. It's all about sense.....

make sense to you ???

[PirateJoe]

Maybe because when learning a new language, you're not often learning words you don't already know. The linguistic connection to a concept is already formed. The concept-to-word connections are strongest in your native tongue, thus it takes a bit of thought to say, "No, not that word for apple, I want manzana."

This is even further exacerbated by the fact that the foreign words you learn are most likely part of the core vocabulary, vocabulary which has connections to concepts you use every day. The concept-to-native word connection is especially strong.

For example, I have no trouble remembering shadenfraud because it is the first word I learned connected to that specific concept, despite it being foreign.

Similarly, I have trouble remembering english words that I don't use often, because the connections just aren't as strong.

As to why its easier to form connections to german and french words, its probably because english uses a dickload of german and french-derived words already, not to mention the obscene number of cognates.

[static_void]

Originally Posted by PirateJoe

I have no trouble remembering shadenfraud

*schadenfreude

Apparently not .

Sorry... just felt like being a dick. Anyway...

[Hare_Geist]

I like PirateJoe's explanation.

[PirateJoe]

Originally Posted by static_void

*schadenfreude

Apparently not .

Sorry... just felt like being a dick. Anyway...

I knew something didn't look quite right. But apparently enough people on the internet made the same mistake so as not to correct me when I googled the spelling.