Meat, Vegetables, or Both?

[ReclaimPublicSpace]

Originally Posted by Dalaran

Supposing, and veggie eaters, I know this is a *BIG* supposing:

There is a way to raise meat in environmentally appropriate ways AND that eating good quality meat of this caliber actually has health benefits.

Is there a way to raise animals in such a way that is respectful (think "free range" etc.) and eat them as well? Or do you think this is a contradiction of terms?

Yes, there is, and that's by buying your own livestock and raising it yourself, or knowing the farmer that you buy your livestock from. However, this is not very practical, and that's the problem. Because of a massive push to productivity, animals MUST be treated like products rather than living beings in order to get them in and out of the whole business as soon as possible.

In a perfect world, where I was sure that meat was raised ethically and responsibly and where it was much healthier for you, then I would eat meat. Until then, I'm sticking to my veggies.

[madmentos]

Originally Posted by Dalaran

I recently had an interesting conversation with someone on the issue of why they were vegetarian. The argument boiled down to this:

She is not vegetarian because: 1.) She does not believe in causing suffering to sentient life; 2.) She believes that by eating meat, we are causing suffering to sentient life (namely, the animal which we kill to eat); and therefore she does not eat meat.

Of course, our discussion went more in depth and we looked at why we think some of the premises her argument might hold or not hold true. I will save you the details (though provide them upon your request).

What I am interested is two things: first, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous (or possibly are solely carnivorous); second, why you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous; and third, particularly to those who eat meat, on what grounds would you justify causing "suffering to sentient life," when there are alternatives)? Or if you do not believe that eating meat causes "suffering to sentient life" please provide a response as to why you do not believe this premise, or other problems you have with assumptions made in her argument.

Your responses appreciated!

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

[scovegner]

Well, I'm a vegan and (a few of) my reasons:

Of course, I don't want to be responsible for harming sentient life as already said ..

And I also don't really like the idea of eating a dead animal or it's secretions, just seems 'wrong' to me ..

Environmentally, meat is hugely destructive, takes about 54 kilos of feed to get 1 kilo of beef and huge amounts of water etc etc ..

And I can live perfectly well without it and still be healthy; I guess if I was in the situation where I truly couldn't survive without it I would eat meat; but I'm not going to willingly put myself in such a situation if I can help it .. But preservation of myself is my biggest priority, if it's either me or an animal dying then it'd be the animal, just the same if it was another human ..

And I also think that the food industry is hugely disconnected from the source, just walking up to a supermarket shelf and getting a bit of meat is just so separate to hunting a wild animal and eating the meat from it yourself it's a totally different thing.. I mean if you asked the average person where on the animal a piece of meat comes from they'd not be able to tell you ..

And why I'm vegan instead of vegetarian; animals will be harmed in some way and severely restricted in their freedom whatever method you use to raise them, and it's extremely difficult to tell how they have been just from a phrase on a packet, and on a more basic level I don't want to be putting my money towards an industry that will invariably kill the same animals in the end ..

What I find funny though is people saying 'are you allowed to eat this', as if I have some huge internal conflict that makes me not eat meat even though I really want it deep inside; but really I just don't want to at all in the first place ..


Just a couple thoughts ..

[Cowboy of the Apocalypse]

Originally Posted by madmentos

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Sure, I would...
..if I could. It's not easy to butcher yourself when you've just died humanely - just like the animals that provide meat do. The closest comparison you could make between eating meat from a cage raised animal is eating meat from a fit & healthly disease free prisoner electrocuted on death row. It's the same thing. Nothing else can really be drawn comparison to, especially not what you described. Death row execution subjects suffer more though.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

[scovegner]

Originally Posted by Cowboy of the Apocalypse

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

A very large proportion (think it was >90%) of the soybeans grown in the amazon formerly rainforest are imported to europe and america where they are fed to chickens to raise them..

A couple facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...eat_production
According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain.

[Cowboy of the Apocalypse]

I forgot to add that I am a prime producer, and am not denying livestock don't take a lot of resources to raise. I agree with your link and the consideration of the subject amtter within it is one of the reasons I added Soya.

The reason I made the point to highlight rice, cotton, and soya was to bring it to the attention of those unaware had bad these crops are. The whole way industrialised (being industrialised is a good thing, but has drawbacks) countries have managed their food by making it en masse in other places is pretty much a disaster.

I also just wuld like to make a point that, As for textiles, if that's not going too far off subject, Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted. I'm undecided on GM foods, my stance is slightly against them for now. You can't walk with a leg on either side of a barbed wire fence.

I absolutely abhor supermarket chains. Farmers markets and alternate means for the win!

[Cowboy of the Apocalypse]

Meat production definitely needs to be minimised, but it can't come anywhere near being abolished. That would be the end of the world, pretty much.


I couldn't care less if the pork industry was abolished. It's a lost industry - Muslims and jews don't eat pork, and while I'm neither that's a pretty large sector of the world market already gone. They're kept in battery pens, too, if that's something that concerns people. But that's not my reasoning...

..While I grant those arguing against me that a fair bit of what pigs eat is waste, I think you should consider that a fair bit of what they produce is waste also (and the rest isn't exactly health food). Compared to other animals, only a small portion of their carcass is butchered for either bacon, ham, or chops (I include ribs in here to make things easy) - pork is done in such a way that none of these products even come from the same pig.

Pigs are raised for one chosen whole product, so there is even more waste involved than you think.
The rest (waste, and varying grades of offal) goes into salamis, hotdogs, and pies, which are all processed foods these days (besides pet food), and processed foods as a whole need to dissapear. Without processed foods there's even less reason for the pork industry.

If it were specialised and not mass produced, then we wouldn't have such a problem. Small businesses and speciality butchers use most of the carcass with much less waste. Even the way their extent and use of offal is much more acceptable. If pork is made a small time thing, or abolished alotogether, it'd be the end of standalone piggerys.

[scovegner]

Originally Posted by Cowboy of the Apocalypse

Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted.

Very true ..
Grows well in marginal areas, kills off weeds, puts nutrients into the soil ..
And has many uses, from as a drug, as food, as fuel, as fiber etc etc ..
Great plant

[Nagasaki911]

Originally Posted by madmentos

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

[lostmyface]

i used to be a vegan. for about 3 years actually. i did it for environmental reasons. the meat industry is a very inefficient use of our natural resources. i can understand people doing it for ethical reasons though. not only is the industry horribly inefficient, but it is also unnecessarily cruel.

that being said, now i am once more an omnivore. it is a healthier life style nutritionally speaking i think. also i love bacon far to much an that soy stuff just could not fill my cravings.