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Transcript of radio show
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kfyi-593.pt1 666 000000 000000 00000036074 05400446102 011143 0 ustar 00 000000 000000 KFI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment One
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro Music...
A : And now another hour of Arizona's most exciting news/talk radio
continues as KFYI shows you how to take command of your computer.
Now here's KFYI's PC expert and syndicated columnist Kim Kommando.
KK: And here we are. We're gonna be taking command of that computer for
the next two hours. 6 to 8 PM here on 910 KFYI. Any computer question.
All you gotta do is pick up the phone and dial now. You are gonna be
renting the nerds for the next two hours. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. We've got
two lines open. You don't have to read the manuals. You don't have to
ask your friends and neighbors what kind of computer software that, that
you should buy. Because you what? They may not have the right answer. All
you gotta do is pick up the phone and give us a call. 258-5394. 258-KFYI.
Any computer question. And I guarantee you that we'll know the answer or
do our best to have the right answer for you. And again, we have one line
open. 258-5394. And joining us today, two very special guests. Well, Bruce
is here. Bruce is our, our techno-extrodinaire. He knows the bits and
bytes of the universe.
B : Personally.
KK: Personally knows them. He can call them by name. But our special guests.
Their names. The first one is Mind Rape. Yes, his mother and father are
proud of that name, but I don't think that they gave it to him. And then
we also have Merc. Short for Mercury. And these two gentleman, what, what
they do. Now there's good uses of technology. And this is the stuff like
word processing. And you can write a book. You can help your business
grow. You can make yourself more productive. You can give your kids an
advantage for the future. And those are the good uses of technology.
And, if we think about it, we got computer chips in our washer machines,
in our toasters, in our coffee machines. Just about any place you look
around there is a computer chip somewhere lurking in the mist. But what
about the bad things that technology does? I mean, Merc, we got a phone
call about a, probably about 6 months ago now, a guy called in and said,
"You know Kim, computers are terrible. My father used to work, believe it
or not, at a shoe factory." I remember the caller. "At a shoe factory and
computers displaced everybody there. My father is 60 years old and he has
no job. No money. And I have to support him. And I don't think what you
are doing is a service by, by having a computer show." Well I said thank
you very much and, you know, on to the next caller please. Thank you.
Well, some other bad uses of technology is quote unquote hacking. And
what hacking is is when you, when you use your computer to do unscrupulous
things, in my opinion. And certainly hacking is not what a lot of people
would call the best way to use of technology. But yet, the hackers exist.
They've been around. You've seen the headlines. You know, "Billions Stolen
From a Bank." You know, and normally we're talking about, about people
that aren't so, you know that they're not old, folks, you know normally
they're in their teens and they get a little bored and need something to
do, in my opinion. And, and hence comes the word hacking. And so joining
us, we have a, we have two gentlemen here. The first one's Mind Rape,
again. The second one's Merc. And gentleman, I'd like to to say thanks
for coming down. And, ah, I guess I am just gonna start out by asking you
what is, what is the worst thing that you have done. And I am going
to pose the question to you Mind Rape. And ah, now you're a married man.
I see a ring on your finger. Ok. You have a family?
MR: Ah, Yes.
KK: Ok. And ah, ah, you have any kids? You got kids?
MR. Yes
KK: Ok. How old are you kids?
MR. That's not really important here.
KK: Ok. Well, I know, I just want to establish the fact that you are a family
man. You got values. You got morals.You're married. You're not just
fooling around, you know, and, and, so on and so forth. What do you think
is the worst thing that you've done by hacking?
MR: Ummm, as in worst as in the best accomplishment that I have done?
KK: Well I don't if I would, I guess, I don't know if, if we would call it an
accomplishment, but if you want to use the word accomplishment, I
understand. But, what do you think it is, and I'll use your words, what is
your best accomplishment that you have done with a computer.
MR: Ah, I would have to say, taking control over a major phone
company system.
KK: Ok. So you took control of the phone system. What does that mean when,
when you say you took control.
MR: We accessed their systems and, umm, we were full, we had full system
privledges, we controlled everything. We were God.
KK: Ok. You were God. quote unquote?
MR: Uhuh.
KK: Ok. And, and, you accessed their systems. Could fool around with the
billing? I mean, Could you make free long distance calls? Could you...
MR: We could have. That wasn't the point.
KK: What was the point?
MR: Just to see if we could do it.
KK: Ok. Then once you got in there what'd you do? Did you do anything malicious?
MR: No! No. No, that is, we do not, Merc and I do not believe in that.
That is totally unethical.
KK: So its kinda like a game then? To see if you can get in?
MR: Ah...Yeah...
MY: No...
MR: You wouldn't call it a game?
MY: No, its more of a way of life. A philosophy.
KK: Ok. So this is a philosophy. Now that's an interesting word to use...
its a philosophy.
MY: It is.
KK: Ah...Explain that.
MY: Well, first before I can explain it, I would like to readdress your
previous definition of hackers. A hacker isn't necessarily someone
interested in breaking the law. I don't think you can build a case
that someone who broke the law is a hacker. They might have used hacking
skills to accomplish their goal, but that does make them a hacker in our
guild.
KK: Ok. So you don't think hacking is bad.
MR: No.
MY: I think their are positive uses of hacking skills.
KK: Ok. And, well, there are, you know, positive uses of guns. I mean.
MY: That's correct. That's a good point.
KK: There's positive uses of a lot of things. So you, so you don't think
this is a bad thing.
MY: I think there can be negative things that hackers can do. I think there
can be positive things. I think you have decide, ah, what you plan on
doing with your skills, and just like any skilled person, whether its
someone's who interested in electronics or chemical engineering or
whatever it is, you use your skill for negative or dishonest or criminal...
KK: But what do you get, what do you gain from getting into...
MY: You gain...I'm glad you're asking me that finally. Ummm...
KK: Finally? We've only been on the air a couple minutes. <laughter>
MY: You gain...You gain knowledge.
KK: You gain knowledge.
MY: There's a great amount of learning.
KK: What about reading an encyclopedia? I mean...
MR: Oh yeah!
KK: Reading a book?
MY: We do that too. Library...
MR: That's our...
MY: That's a hacker's heaven.
MR: That's our main resource. That's where we originally started at.
KK: Ok. If, you know, if you're out there listening and you have an opinion
about hackers or maybe you're a hacker, we loved to hear from you. I got
one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And especially if, you know, you have
an opinion about hackers, if you think its wrong, or, err, or maybe that
something has happened to you, or somebody has gotten into your computer
and has done something that you don't think is ok, well, I want to hear
from you. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And so, you know, so you consider this a
knowledge bank. I mean, you know, I guess I'm kinda sitting here saying
I use a computer all the time. Ok.
MR: Uhuh.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: When you guys sat down, you said, gosh, you know, we're surprised to
see a woman.
MR: <laughs>
KK: Ok, you expected some... What did you expect?
MR: Well, most woman aren't really interested in, ah, computers.
KK: Ok.
MR: There's nothing wrong with that. Ok, I mean, nothing wrong with women
using computers. But its a shame that not a lot of them take advantage
of it.
KK: Yeah, I mean computers are really cool. I mean they really are.
MR: Yeah.
KK: There's a lot of stuff you can do with them, and they are really just
wonderful. So tell me about the library.
MR: Ah, like we mentioned before, the library is our best resource. That's
where we originally started at.
MY: A plethora of information at the library.
KK: Ok, Give some examples.
MY: There are books at the library explaining how phone switching systems
work - telephony, computer science, programming manuals.
KK: Ok, so this isn't just dialing into, ah, lets just say, the phone system
computer.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: This isn't just dialing in.
MY: Right.
KK: Now we gotta do some research before we can get in.
MY: Right. In fact, I've said in the past that if someone made real movie
about what hackers do it would be the most boring movie ever made.
MR: Yeah.
KK: Ok. I mean. I mean. Do guys have like a...I'm sorry I'm going to ask you
this. But, do you have a life? I mean, you're married, you got some kids.
I mean don't ya, I mean isn't there a better use of your time? I mean...
MY: Well, do you have a life if you are doing what you want to do with your
life?
KK: Ok. Alright, I don't what to say other than I think I could find a better
use for my time. Lets go right to the phones. Lets go to John in Phoenix.
John, you're on 910 KFYI.
--: <dead air>
KK: Hello John?
--: Yes!
KK: You're on the air John.
--: Oh. Ok.
KK: Welcome to the show.
--: Thank you very much. Ah, concerning, ah, I was listening to the
conversation when you first came on discussing with that gentleman,
ah, concerning hacking.
KK: Mind Rape and Mercury are their names. Yes.
--: Ok
KK: Mind Rape.
--: Ok. I went to school and took quite a bit on computer courses for
programming and operation. And, ah, in hacking, I've found, that that's
one of the more...there's a lot of education involved in that. You getting
into...its just like getting into a new library. You go into another
system...
KK: Now John...
--: A lot of people that hack aren't in there to cause damage. Just to see and
look.
KK: John, have you hacked around? Have you done it?
--: I have hacked before.
KK: Ok. And why did you do it?
--: Just to see if it could be done. Just to take a look. Just like seeing an
interesting book, you pick it up and you start reading it.
KK: Ok. So its really just something that you feel that, ah, its a challenge
for ya. Its something that you'd just like to try. Kinda like trying to
ride a motorcycle. I mean, I'd like to try a lot of things. I'd like to
try and paint, I mean. So you think that trying to get into somebodies
computer is, is a worthwhile venture?
--: It is to a certain degree as long as the ethics involved in it...as long
as their is no mischief involved, any damage. I've hacked into IBM systems
before. And, ah, that's how I learned how full network systems run. I got
my first job...
KK: You know, John, you could read a book on networking and learn.
--: There's reading a book and doing it are two different things. Like reading
a book on how to drive a car does not teach you how to drive a car.
KK: You know, John, I appreciate you calling in and sharing your success story
with hacking, but I still gotta stand by that, you know, there's a privacy
thing here. You know, Merc you're wearing shirt that says "I Love The Feds".
MY: That's sarcasm.
KK: <laughs>
MY: One thing that the caller said is people's system. Now that kind of leaves
a feeling of individuality. Umm...its true, when you hacking into someone's
system you're not looking at someone's face. Or, or ah, you're connecting
to a system of an unknown individual, which is in a lot of cases. So I'd
like to start off by saying I'm not interested in hacking someone's
personal long distance phone codes. Or I'm not interested in stealing
service from the phone company. And I'd even like to state there are legal
ways to call long distance for free. Just to make a point, believe it or
not, its true.
KK: Ok. It's legal?
MY: Right. There are legal ways to call long distance for free.
KK: Well,I don't think we need to go through that here, now.
??: <laughs>
KK: Merc, I have to ask you why is the Attorney General knocking on your door?
MY: Oh. Oh, that was a long time ago.
KK: Ok.
MY: Well, we were stumbling...stumbled across a system that...well, we didn't
know who owned it. It ended up being owned by the State Department of
Revenue.
KK: <laughs>
MY: And they're a little touchy about accessing their systems. And, ah, its a
shame that it had such poor security.
MR: Yeah. Imagine if someone else got into it.
MY: That wasn't...that didn't have the ethics that we have.
KK: See, I don't...see I don't...you know, its a shame. You know, its
a...there's a lot of things that there's a shame out of.
??: Uhuh. <probably MY>
KK: I mean, it's a shame if I'm walking down the street somewhere and I get
mugged because I wasn't looking around. Ok?
??: Uhuh. <probably MY>
KK: I don't know if I...I guess, I'm taking a real hard stance on this because
I think that what you're doing is, you're, ah, I mean technology is so
great, that, and its so powerful that what your doing is showing the bad
side of technology, and that's not good.
MY: What, what...
KK: I mean, you know...I mean, you know, you're outlaws.
MY: What, what bad things have happened by ethical hackers? Not a lot of,
not a lot of bad things.
MR: Actually good things have happened.
MY: There have been a lot of good things. Would you rather that it, that if you
were a student at a university, would you rather your system was secured by
someone who used to be a hacker and understood the security holes and flaws,
or would rather your system was secured by someone who just graduated, just
got out of school, was green behind the thumbs, so to speak?
KK: Well I don't know if the universities will actually do that. There's, you
know, there's several programs on the market. We've got one line open. If
you want to join in, 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Just because we're talking about
hackers doesn't mean you have to. All you gotta do is pick up the phone
and give us a call. Let's go to Scott in Tempe. Scott, you're on 910 KFYI.
<Scott was having a problem with his new modem. I edited out his waste of time>
<as well as the commercial break that immediately followed this call. >
<This ends the segment one, the first half hour of the program. >
kfyi-593.pt2 000666 000000 000000 00000063210 05401755474 01115 0 usta 00 000000 000000 KFYI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment Two
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro music 1: Each time I see a little girl, of 5 or 6 or 7, I can't resist
a joyous urge, to smile and say, thank heaven for little girls...
Intro music 2: Eric Clapton
KK: And thank heaven for those little girls. Cause when those little girls
grow up they do computer shows. What do you think? I'm Kim Kommando.
We're talking about hacking. We're answering all those computer questions
here today. We got one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Let's go to Bob in
Tempe. Your on 910 KFYI, Bob. <Zaphod>
--: Hi. How are you?
KK: Great.
--: I was wondering, ummm, they keep talking about this hacker ethic and
I was kinda wondering what that was.
KK: Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it, Bob?
--: Well, not really. I mean, you can have lots of ethics I suppose you know,
say ah, there can be a difference I guess between destroying things and ah
just wanting to see what's going on, curiosity.
KK: Ok, well, you...you guys answer that question.
MY: I'd like to answer that. First of all, we're not the ones that invented
the term Hacker's Ethic. In fact, that's an old, ah, term. That's been
around since...
MR: Since the 60's.
MY: Since the 60's...since it originated at MIT. Ummm, if you would like to
explore of the philosophy of the Hacker's Ethic ah, I would say read a
book called "Hacker's" by Steven Levy. That's...
KK: Which brings up, which brings up a good point. Ok? And ah, and, Bob, I'm
gonna ask ya...you know, your welcome, your still on the air so you can
join in. Ok?
--: Ok.
KK: Ah, what about going to school?
MR: Well, I have attended school.
KK: What about...I mean, you know, certainly there's a lot of knowledge you
can gain by going to school.
MR: Well one of the problems is I did attend ASU for awhile. And, umm, and
the classes were extremely baby-fied.
KK: Did you graduate?
MR: Phht...no...
KK: No. Ok.
MR: I...The teachers were idiotic. They treat you like you know nothing. Which
is understandable, ok? But I even tried to get into higher end courses
that they require like master degrees and stuff.
KK: Ok.
MR: And no. You have to take these courses. And I'm trying to tell them, I
know so, I know so much and I'm even willing to test out of these courses.
They stilled refused. So I tried.
MY: I can second that. I've called up ASU in the past and asked to take some
advanced classes. Classes in which I probably could have taught their
instructors a thing or two about. And they insisted that I complete their
MBA program before I go on to that class.
KK: Yeah, you know, but that's, that's a ah, that's a sign of youth.
??: Well...
KK: And I'm not that much older than you guys sitting here
MR: Uhuh.
KK: You look like you're in their twenties. I'm in my twenties.
MY: I would like to state I do have a degree in computer science. An
associates degree. But I didn't continue on to get the masters or the
bachelors.
KK: Ok. Ah, because, I, I have a bachelors in computers.
MR: Uhuh.
KK: I mean, I went through ASU. And, you know, there's a point in out lives
when we think we know everything.
MR: No. We don't. That's why we wanted to go to school. Because we wanted to
learn more. But as it turns out their sitting there telling me how to
format a disk, ok, when I already knew how to do, done this since I was 9
years old.
KK: Ok, well, I can't believe that. You know, what about DeVry? What about
another school? I mean, certainly there are others ways...
MR: Its not just the school itself, its the teachers also.
MY: I guess the point we are trying to make is we've learned more on our own...
MR: Yeah.
MY: ...than we ever could have done going to a school.
KK: Now you're telling me that nothing...that you've never done anything bad,
quote unquote. You've never, you've never used the computer, or the
hacker...
MY: To steal I'd say...
KK: To steal.
MY: Right.
KK: Ok. Have you disrupted somebody's files to make them look a little crazy.
Ah, just, just fooling around....I mean you weren't doing anything
malicious.
MR: Umm...no one is perfect. No one's perfect
MY: I've done that to other hackers to just play jokes and stuff though.
KK: But you know sometimes...
MY: But not to students to confuse them.
KK: You could have gotten into the Bell system, the phone company system.
MR: Uhuh.
MY: Could have.
KK: And ah, and maybe disrupted some of their files.
MY: Eh...Right...
KK: You know, and we're talking about a billion dollar a year company.
MY: I guess the mentality behind that is, is you could go out and buy a gun
to shoot someone but you don't because you have ah, ethics or I suppose
you have a conscience and...so we all have the free agency, the capacity
to do anything be we choose not to because of free will.
KK: Ok. Ok, well, there's another term associated with hackers called
cyberpunks.
MR: No.
MY: No, we hate that term.
MR: No. No, I am not a cyberpunk
MY: It's new age. It's trendy. It's...
MR: It's a fashion statement that's what it is.
KK: Ok, well, a pocket protector is a fashion statement too, but, I mean...
MR: Well, we don't seem to be looking like we're wearing one <laughs>
KK: No, no pocket protectors there. Let's go to...Let's go to Mike in Phoenix.
You're on 910 KFYI, Mike.
--: Yeah, just some general questions for these hackers. Ummm, found this kinda
of interesting. I've been messing around with computers now for maybe about
3 years. Been messing around mainly with Autocad. In other cases I get on
my modem and I horse around...just for the ah, bulletin boards services.
I've always been curious...how do they gain access. Can they give me some
ah...
KK: So you want, so you want tips!
--: I'm just curious how they do it.
KK: You want hacker tips.
MY: Maybe he wants to know ways to keep it from happening to him.
--: That's very possible.
MY: Nothing wrong with knowing that.
--: No I'm just curious...
KK: Well it works both ways.
--: ...how do they around codes. How do they get access to the numbers.
KK: That's an interesting question. How do you do it?
MY: Different...different ways. It depends...
KK: Give me an example. Tell me how...
MY: If he's attached a major network, say the Internet or ah, Sprintnet say,
then there's already ways to connect to a system without going through a
login. There's mail ports, there's finger ports. Ummm...I'm primarily
someone who's interested in networks. For someone...
KK: You like networks.
MY: I love networks.
KK: Are they easier?
MR: No.
MY: Easier to hack? No. Because there are so many predecessors before us that
they are more secure. But there are more ways...more different ways to
connect to them.
MR: You can literally go around the world.
KK: Ok. Explain that. Go around the world.
MR: For example, you can literally go around the world. All the way to Taiwan.
Right out of...
MY: I maintain...its not really amazing, its nothing...its no major
accomplishment that we made. Its the people who, who run the networks
that really are the, ah, the great people as far as that accomplishment
goes. But, anyone who has, who has any experience working on the Internet
knows that all you have to do is specify an Internet address and you can
immediately connect to any host, connect to any domain.
KK: Ok, and bypass any, ah, you know with Internet there are no real charges.
But what about, like a online service like Compuserve?
MY: Ummm...Well I think...Well this is my opinion, I'm not gonna...I don't
want to hurt anyone here, but I think Compuserve...its just a blatant
ripoff.
MR: Its basically a joke. That's what it really is.
MY: There's...its a self contained system they have mail gateways on it to
the Internet. But what can you get on there that you...
KK: But there's, But there's a lot...
MY: ...can't get for free.
KK: Well, yeah. But there's, But there's a lot on there that you can get.
Ok. Cause I use Compuserve all the time. But before we get into it...Mike,
do you...do you think its ok to hack?
--: Do I think its ok to hack?
KK: Yeah.
--: It depends what you're getting on to.
KK: Ok.
--: Ummm....I'm sure there lots of stuff you can get onto where you can't
create damage if you just do it for entertainment.
KK: Ok.
--: Then that would be ok. I think if maybe you get onto something, for
example, umm, a police service of some sort you could cause some damage
and, ah, hurt other people unknowingly. Ummm...<garbled - she talks over
him>
KK: But, but, you know, but the bottom line is if you think you're just...you
think that if you're at home, ok, you got a computer and a phone line.
And, ah, you know, its a little slow around the household, you got...
you're bored. And you're curious to see if you could do it. You think
its ok to go into somebody else's computer and take a look. Its kinda,
you know, cause sometimes computers are like your homes. I mean, there's
so much personal information on a computer.
--: I know a little about hacking. Although I haven't really gotten into it.
I know enough if you really want these boys out, there are ways to keep
them out.
MY: That's true. I would....I would say that most of systems that get hacked
are systems that where the administrator never cared.
--: Yeah.
MY: And didn't take the time, the small amount of time it would have taken to
secure the system.
--: But tell me about the networking. How do you get ummm. <laughs> How do you
find the numbers for these things. How do you get access to these things?
MY: There are public Internet dialups.
--: Really?
MY: For instance, there's a new place in the valley that just ah, free public
Internet access. And I guess I can't say that because you can't name names
on the air, so I won't. But, ummm, you can access the Internet if, if you
are at a major university
KK: Ok.
MY: So...
KK: So, I mean, so if you know if you have access to Internet you're telling
me that I can go...
MY: Or government or military sites that are all connected to the Internet too.
KK: Ok. And so and its not very difficult to get in there.
MY: Oh, I wouldn't say that. But I'd, I'd say there are times when you find
systems that aren't secure. And...
KK: How long does it take you to get into one? On the average?
MR: It depends on the security of the system...
KK: Let's say just the average...
MY: On the average, how many times in a day, could I hack into...how many
sites could I hack into in a day, would ya say?
KK: Yeah.
MY: At the most, I would say four sites on the Internet.
KK: 4 sites in an 8 hour day?
MY: Ahh...well, maybe I didn't spend 8 hours doing it constant...I mean,
sometimes I'm not sitting there doing it, maybe I have a program doing
it for me.
KK: Oh, so, so you can write programs. Well, I want to know about that. <laughs>
This is interesting. I, I...this is interesting. We got...Mike, thanks for
the call. We've got one line open. If you want to join in, 258-3954.
258-KFYI. I'm Kim Kommando on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: ACDC
KK: We're back answering all those computer questions here on 910 KFYI.
Let's go right back to the phones. Let's go to Sharon in Phoenix.
You're on 910 KFYI, Sharon.
--: Hi.
KK: Hi.
--: Ah, I didn't know your boys were gonna be on and I got a DOS question and a
comment.
KK: Oh no, that's cool. We'll take it. But no, let's hear your comment.
MY: Maybe we can answer it I don't know.
--: Yes.
KK: Hey, well, you know, give me a break here! You know, I do this every week
without ya. Ok, I mean... <laughs>
MY: Ok, I'm not trying to take your job, go ahead. <laughs>
MR: We want her job, man. <laughs>
--: Tell your boys to cool it.
KK: Cool it over there. Listen to Sharon.
--: <laughs> I think that what they're doing is akin to being in a
neighborhood, you know, that they're familiar with and looking in the
living room window or dining room window providing they don't...
KK: So they're peepers!
--: Right. Now if they open the files and actually read them, then they are
looking in the bedroom window and then it changes a little bit.
??: <laughs>
KK: You know what, I gotta tell ya, the guys are getting excited here. You
say bedroom window and they're get excited.
--: Right. Exactly.
KK: You know, that's a good point Sharon.
--: Now what they're doing, if they tell somebody that there was something
terribly illegal going on in that living room and that it should be fixed,
I'd say harmless fun, and thank you, you know, for letting us know. If
they let the security people know. On the other hand, if they keep going
in and keep looking then it isn't harmless fun anymore, then its invasion
of privacy
KK: I, I agree with you Sharon. I think it is an invasion of privacy.
--: But on the other hand, kids will be kids and, you know when I grew up, they
used to tip over the outhouse and they used to dump things. And...you know
what I'm saying.
KK: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.
--: I don't mind, I really don't mind them doing it. And I certainly don't
want to see them go to jail for 20 years because they looked.
KK: But if, but if they look inside, and...
--: If they reach in through the screen and take anything...
KK: They should be put away.
--: Put them away.
MY: I...
KK: Put them away.
MY: I have a statement to say about that.
KK: Go ahead, Merc.
MY: I mean, I understand the angle she's trying to take with this. And I agree
when you're young, you do things, childish things, like tip over outhouses
though I never have had the privledge myself. But all that...
KK: Get to the point, Merc. Come on.
MY: We take hacking very seriously, its not a childish type of thing. We have
reasons for what we do, and we also have things that motivate us, and,
umm...
KK: We're...We're going to talk about those motivations. But let's here that
DOS question first, Sharon.
<editted out Sharon's DOS 6.0 - the usual upgrade problems>
KK: ... And I appreciate you calling in, because you know what, Sharon, you
brought up a great point, that, it is like you're looking in someone's
home ok, when you're hacking, ok because, you know, you're looking inside
computers. Now, you know, Mind Rape. Nice name. <laughs> Bye the way...
nice name...
MR: Its nothing sexual.
KK: Well, Mind...Rape...you know, I mean, you have to come up with a better one.
But anyway, you look like a nice guy. What are you running around with a
name called Mind Rape for? I mean, its ah...
MR: Well, basically, it ah umm...phttt...it can be taken several ways. One, it
describes who I am and how I see things. So basically my mind itself has
been raped.
KK: Now you consider yourself ethical?
MR: Pardon me?
KK: You consider...err...both you guys. You think you're ethical.
MY: We like to be. We like to be considered ethical. Yes.
MR: Yes.
MY: We believe we have ethics.
KK: Ok, now, now do you know what the definition of ethics is? I mean, can
you...can you tell me what the definition of ethics is right now?
MY: I didn't look at it in Webster before I came, so I probably couldn't give
you his version of it. But ours is maintaining our own level of, of
professionality in what we do and not...we're not out to hurt or...
MR: Profit...
MY: ...profit...we're not in it for profit and...
KK: We're going to talk about what the definition of ethics is, when we come
back. I'm Kim Kommando of 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: Van Halen
KK: We're back answering all those computer questions. We're talking about the
ethics of computing. The ethics of hacking not computing. We're here with
Mind Rape and Mercury, or short for, Merc. And we're talking about what's
all happening and how they are able to get inside the computers. And
before we went to that break, I asked you the definition of ethics. Ok,
Merc? And you, you told me during the break that you wanted to work on it,
you know, that, that you didn't give the right definition. Ok, so you tell
me what it is.
MY: <muffled> again...again...<clear> Something wrong with the microphone.
<laughs>
KK: I know, go ahead shoot. Your on now.
MY: Short in it. Again, I'm not...I'm not...
KK: High tech place...I'm not the person who invented the term Hacker's Ethic
But I know what it means as far as what I do and what I shouldn't do. And
things that I shouldn't do is...well, ah...for any reason, for reasons of
revenge or what don't destroy systems. Don't get involved for personal gain.
Just be in it for the learning experience.
KK: Ok, for the experience. That's, that's what ethics means to Merc. Ok, lets
go to ah, lets go to Bob in Scottsdale. Err...lets go to Gail in Phoenix
Your on 910 KFYI, Gail.
??: Hi Gail.
KK: Gail?
--: Yes.
KK: You're on the air.
--: I'd like to ask Mind Rape, given his view of ethics, what ah, he was
prosecuted for and what was the outcome of his case.
KK: Good question, Gail. Go ahead.
MR: Is your name by any chance Gail Thackeray?
KK: Now we don't give out last names here, its not important. Let's, let's go
ahead Mind Rape. You're blushing a little bit. Why are you doing that?
MR: Well, I have been busted before.
KK: Ok.
MR: I have been prosecuted for telephone abuse.
KK: Telephone Abuse. Gail?
--: Isn't that theft?
KK: Yes. That's theft. Ok, now you got prosecuted for that. But you, you've
been telling me, here, for the last forty minutes that you don't do
anything wrong. That, that, you know...
MR: No, that was. That right there...
KK: Yeah but...
MR: It takes, sometimes it does take a bust to really show me what's...what
isn't right.
KK: But Mind Rape, for the last forty minutes, you, or so, you've been on the
air. You've sat here and said, Kim... And you've said it to us, the
listeners, ok, I do it for the experience. I do it because I want to learn.
Because I tried to go to ASU and I couldn't learn, you know, I couldn't
learn a damn thing. I didn't know anything...I couldn't learn anything
because I already knew how to format a hard disk. But now, but now you're
telling me...now...now... You lied to us...
MR: No. No. I, as I mentioned before, no one's perfect either. I mentioned that
at the very beginning of the show. No...not...
KK: Ok, well tell us why you got prosecuted.
MR: Ah, I was basically doing telephone fraud, which is abusing long distance
service. Making free phone calls.
--: Free to whom? Someone paid your bill.
KK: Yeah. Us the consumers paid your bill eventually. I paid your bill Mind
Rape. Who'd you call?
MR: <laughs>
KK: How come I didn't get the benefit of the phone call?
MR: Well see, I don't have the resources to learn. Ok. I would go to ASU, I
would go to Devry. But one of the things is, I don't have the money. ok...
And if there was...
KK: Oh my...get out of here...
MR: No seriously, if there were teachers and stuff out there, that willing to
work with me, in such a way...
KK: No, I want to know why you were prosecuted now.
MR: Why I got prosecuted? For abusing telephone service and stuff.
KK: Ok, so how did you get nailed. ANd what happened to you? Did you go to jail?
Did you get a fine?
MR: No, I'm, ah, currently serving probation.
KK: Ok.
MR: Which is, you know, decent of them to allow me to do, to do that.
KK: Gail, you got a comment?
--: Yes. If he had a burning desire to learn about high performance race cars,
no one would forgive him for stealing them and joyriding in them and taking
them away from their owners. But he feels that he has a right to do the
same thing with computers.
MR: No, the telephone abuse, I would have to say, it was wrong. Ok. That was
my mistake.
--: What about exploring other people's computers without their permission or
knowledge? And not caring about what happens to the computer while your
exploring?
MY: Well, again, your using the word people's. I mean, we're not interested
in individual's systems.
KK: What they're saying, Gail, what they've been saying here, is...
MY: What about a government system that maintains list of information on
private citizens?
KK: Gail. But Gail, Gail, they're denying going into people's computers. Ok?
Alright, They're saying they only go into companies so its ok.
--: Well...
KK: Now, I don't, I don't agree with them. I agree with you. I think your 100%
right.
MR: We're not out there to steal information. Ok? We're out there to further
what we know. And some of the tactics, some of the tactics we have done...
--: You're out there to explore what interests you. And you don't care system
it is that you're on. And you don't care what happens to the system that
you are exploring. Because, when you explore it, you cause unforeseen
problems. And you're there to explore whether that happens or not. And you
don't really care, do ya?
MR: Would you rather have me hack into a government site, or some KGB agent
hack into a government site?
--: I'd rather that nobody hacked into it. But I can't accept...
MR: But it happens...it happens...
--: ...the KGB's desire to do it as an excuse for your willingness
to cause harm.
MR: Ehem...
MY: Back to the ethics thing, though, I...
KK: No. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about the ethics thing...
MY: I would like to say though, as far as breaking into systems, that
every time...
KK: Merc, I gotta put you...
MY: Go ahead.
KK: We're going to talk about the ethics thing. Because, you know...and I'm
gonna read you the definition of ethics, ok? And I'm gonna tell ya what
ethics is. Or what Webster's says ethics is. And what I think as a moral
person, with a value system, that pays taxes, that abides by the law,
what we think about ethics. What's important to us. I'm Kim Kommando here
on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: George Thorogood
KK: And we're back answering all those computer questions. We're talking about
hackers. We've got one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And I'm gonna read
you, Mind Rape, Merc. I'm gonna read you what Webster's here...I'm gonna
look it up, Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary. Its a big, a big
red book. What they say ethics is. Ethics is a noun. The body of moral
principles governing a group, a complex of moral held rules of conduct
followed by an individual or group and if you're ethical, ok, is that if
you're upholding these rules, the standards of a profession. And I beg to
argue with you. Now, I've programmed. I, I have a degree in programming.
I've had to program for Fortune companies in my life. I mean, you know,
I...now this is all...me being on radio just didn't happen overnight I've
worked for IBM. I've worked for ATT. I've worked for Unisys. In different
capacities. Now, I know that there's standards for computing.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: There are various bodies of conduct. Anything from where to put the pick
statements in a Cobol program, alright?
MY: Right.
KK: To ah...
MY: I'm a Cobol programmer, I know what you're talking about.
KK: Yeah, and They're a pain, right? Those pick statements...I hate em.
MY: Heh...
MR: I hate Cobol.
MY: I guess the, ah, the keyword in that was a group, followed by a group. I
guess we could safely say that our ethics, obviously, ah...I'm not gonna...
When I say ours, I don't mean MR's and mine, I mean the ethics of the whole
hacker community, and its not a small community either. We're talking
about thousands of people. I wouldn't say millions.
KK: Ok, but...but do you think its ok if, if a group of people... Do you think
its ethical for a group of people to look inside my bedroom window?
MR: That's a different situation actually.
KK: Why...
MR: That is your bedroom window. That is your house.
KK: Ok, but my, but my computer
MY: I don't know. It depends... Are you changing your clothes with the window
open?
KK: Oh, So if I have the window open, its ok.
MR: <laughs>
MY: I mean, Well, don't blame me if I drive by and if I look and see you
standing there. Its the same thing, if people leave their systems wide open.
Ah...and I'm not saying blame them. I'm saying there, ah, that we provide
a service, and its agreed, its not a service that a lot of people like to...
KK: You're unethical. You're unethical.
MY: In your terms of ethics, yes. I'm not.
KK: Ok, then say it. In my terms...
MY: In your terms I am not ethical.
KK: You are not ethical.
MY: Right. Because you obviously follow a different set of ethics than I...
KK: I, I follow what the dictionary says. And I say what the world...
MY: No, the dictionary said group, and your group and my group are not the
same group.
KK: Alrightie... Well we're gonna, we're gonna, you guys hang...you guys are
gonna hang around for a couple more minutes. And, ah, the Hell's Angels
aren't very ethical sometimes either, but anyway, I'm Kim Kommando here
on...
MY: Great bunch of guys though...
MR: <laughs>
KK: ...910 KFYI. And ah, Daryl, Tom, Steve you hang on the line. we're gonna
be getting to your phone calls after the, ah, news, here, at the top of
the hour.
Exit Music...
<commercial break and news at the top of the hour>
<This is the end of segment two.>
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