Genesis: Some questions

Vanhalla · #1 2009-01-14, 06:32

So I went to the library the other day and brought home "The Revised English Bible".

Now, I was not brought up on a religious faith of any kind. So I have never read the Bible. Ever since I was a young boy I've always known, there is a vast Universe deep within myself. A mysterious Cosmos that I would spend the rest of my life exploring. Trying to understand what this place really is, and my role in all of it. I've learned a lot in this small amount of time I've been here, through science and mysticism, esoteric contemplation and exoteric ritual, yet lately I've asked myself, "What is the bible?" This one book, of many versions and many interpretations, has had such a profound and awe inspiring impact upon the consciousness of man yet here I am. Unable to answer the question "what is the bible?" because I've never taken the time to read it, to create my own interpretation of this age old text.

I created this thread to gain the wisdom that others have attained during their own examination, their own journey through this book.

Now, I'm going to take this one chapter at a time, and ask questions that will aid me on my quest.

I cannot find the version I got from the library online, but it is close enough.

Genesis: I

6And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

In Hebrew firmament 'raqia' means "limitless expanse". This passage appears to suggest the existence of an aether above the vault (term used in revised English bible), but I didn't find an explanation for what is above the firmament. It couldn't be God because the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

If the Earth is below the 'raqia', then what is above?

rabbit boy · #2 2009-01-14, 08:03

Well... we're talking about something that was written down by people over 2,000 years ago, and certainly not the scientific type. So don't be surprised...

Water. Why? The sky is blue, and the rain falls from it. So a rational explanation is that there's a big dome covering the earth (think of those science fiction stories where they have domed cities on the Moon or Mars) and water above that.

And above that is heaven, where God is.

And to show you that I'm not the one that concluded this...

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Thr...edUniverse.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/m.../cosmology.htm
http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/sylla...mmoncosmos.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tll/chap2.html
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1969/JASA3-69Seely.html

All of these except the last has at least one diagram of what they thought the concept might look like. Admittedly they contradict each other, but it's not especially clear from the Bible's description.

Vanhalla · #3 2009-01-14, 09:51

Ha, that was helpful, thanks.

rabbit boy · #4 2009-01-14, 09:58

Yup. No problem.

Vanhalla · #5 2009-01-14, 19:37

God created the heavens and the earth and darkness covered the face of the deep
Let there be light, and the light was good.
Day 1 God separated the light from the darkness.
Day 2 Heaven and earth were meshed together, so he created a vault to separate water from water.
Day 3 Dry land and gathered sea. The earth produced growing things, that produce their own seed and fruit, with each their own kind. It was good.
Day 4 Sun, moon, constellations
Day 5 Created all sea beast of their various kinds, and birds that fly across the vault ‘Be fruitful and increase.’
Day 6 ‘Let the earth bring forth living creatures’
‘Let us make human beings in our image after our likeness. To have dominion over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the cattle, all wild animals on land, and everything that creeps on the earth.’
Be fruitful and increase. It was good.
Day 7 God finished all the work of creation.

Adam and Eve – The story of the heavens and the Earth after there creation
Heaven and earth were created before the first day, then God separated the light from darkness. On day two all the water was together, so he separated the heavens and the earth. On day three dry land, sea, and growing things were created. On the fourth day celestial bodies were produced. On the fifth day sea animals and birds, on the sixth, animals and humans.

In 2:15 – 2:20 Adam is placed in the garden of Eden to look after it and is informed of the tree of knowledge, and is advised not to eat from it. God then forms all wild animals and birds. According to the first chapter, birds were created on the fifth day and man was created on the sixth, after animals were created.

At first glance this appears to be a contradiction, but upon further examination, it is not. Man before the fall is on the higher, less dense and very blissful realm of earth. After the fall, they are clothed in skin and worry and judgement and fear.

Could you fellow totsians give me your interpretation of how man before and after the fall relates to the 7 days of creation ?

rabbit boy · #6 2009-01-14, 20:27

Well, first off, it's believed by most secular Bible scholars that the beginning of Genesis describes an empty chaotic ocean, or the void. It is similar to the Enuma Elish, in that God is creating order from chaos. It's believed to have been written around the Babylonian captivity.

That is what we think the originally intended meaning is. However, many religious people interpret "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" as a prequel to the first chapter, rather than a summary. But there are two main things that tell me that's not the case. One is that it specifies the creation of the heavens on the 2nd day. The other is that the poem has a closing line, Genesis 2:4. I think in the NEB and REB (I have the NEB, you have the REB) they have gone ahead and split verse 1:24 this way so that it's more clear. Many other translations, however, include it in the Adam & Eve section of the creation story.

The first chapter is really a poem, like the Enuma Elish, and it has a LOT of symmetry in it. For example, on the first day he created light and separated light from darkness (yes, before the stars and sun were in the sky). This created the necessary environment for the sun, stars, and moon on day 4. On day 2 he created the sky (that solid dome I talked about earlier) and put part of the primeval ocean above it, and part below. Now we have sky and sea, for the birds and fish to live in which were created on day 5. And on day 3 he creates dry land and plants, which support the animals and people on day 6.

It's believed that the second part of the creation story -- about Adam and Eve -- is actually an older story predating the Babylonian Exile (which is when the chapter 1 story was written). When they decided to put them into written form, a redactor wove the two stories together. It wasn't perfect, and you can see how they were probably independent at first. That's why you have those contradictions.

A lot of the Torah was combined from two or more different sources. Particularly the accounts from the northern country of Israel, and the southern country of Judah. This is called the documentary hypothesis. There are certain clues for telling the different ones apart, such as the name(s) they have for God, their level of formality, and that sort of thing.

If you want me to say more on the documentary hypothesis, I have some information from a book that may be helpful. You can also of course find plenty of stuff on the web about it.

http://faculty.hope.edu/bandstra/rtot/

Here's one example website. It's from a liberal Christian point of view. You didnt use to have to register, but now apparently you do.