My God shows that Your God doesn't exist.

[d4v3]

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Moses and the Hebrew slaves were not the ruling class.

BA. DA. BING.

oh yeah, that's right. the jews didn't break away from their religious opressors and become religious oppressors of their own people. in fact, i don't think the jews run anything now, not the media or anything especially. now where's that sarcasm tag

[d4v3]

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

So you're addressing this to believers of God and not just religeous people eh?

Do you think it's foolish to believe in a God that is the consciousness of nature. We are the consciousnous that controls our human nature, just as God is the consciousness that controls universal nature?

Why would a lifeform care about survival since it know it's gonna die itself? Where did the want of survival come from? If there is no conscious thought after death then logically a lifeform shouldn't care what happened afterwards. Why would we care what the state of affairs are to be when we aren't around to experience them? Could it be that at a deep level lifeforms know that they are a part of a universe that 'goes on'?

When did lifeforms begin? By an accident of nature, or a reaction that had never happened before. Either way lifeforms are a product of nature. Lifeforms are nature. But why would we feel a need to survive? Because even if we die, nature still carries on.

If a boulder can fall without fear of splitting in two, why can't a man live without fear of death? I mean we are only products of nature aren't we? Our death won't stop nature so why fear it? Nature will still go on no matter which form it takes.

We are the same as nature. But if we are the same as nature, then that must mean that 'nature' wants to survive. But how could nature want to survive if it didn't have a consciousness?

Lifeform cannot suddenly appear into existence unless it's a part of nature already. So the only way we can be different

to nature is if lifeform began as soon as time began. But we all know that our entire bodies are made from natural elements, so

if we are different from nature the only possible difference is consciousness (which controls the area of nature that is our bodies). But then that begs the question "Where did consciousness come from if it isn't a part of nature?".

Consciousness also cannot suddenly spring into existence so it must always have existed.



If consciousness is a product of nature, then nature must have a will to survive, therefore nature has a consciousness (God) and we are part of it.

If consciousness is seperate from nature, then since consciousness cannot suddenly "spring from nothing" then it must

have always existed and since it isn't the same as nature, why should the laws of nature apply? including rules of time and space and death.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 08-13-2003).]

bravo, you've used god as an easy answer and made logical assumptions that cannot be proved one way or another, sounds like another religion to me. how can you assume that conciousness has always existed? for all you know everything has some level of consciousness, depending on it's complexity. a rock is not complex, it's interactions with nature on a chemical level are limited. It seems the more organized and complex the matter, the higher the consciousness. maybe we're part of a universal consciousness in the same way that our cells are parts of our consciousness. either way, these are questions that can't be answered and are therefore as stupid as saying god created everything, it's a leap of unproven faith. i tried to bring some "fact" to the table, consider doing the same mr consciousness has always existed - were you there at the begining of this infinite existence to see how it was always there? are you just daft? No one knows why life has a will to survive, it's instinctual to want to survive, but at a high consciousness one doesn't fear death, i sure don't. so there's your arguement down the tubes again, because the greater the consciousness, the smaller the irrational fear of dying. it's in our genetic coding to wish to survive, that's why slaves living in the worst conditions don't just all commit suicide. get some facts before you try to piece together bs.

[d4v3]

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

As true as your statement is, Kikey, a viewpoint's uniqueness doesn't matter if it's wrong.

sadly, the viewpoint is correct, it's sure worked on you buddy. Work hard all your life for the powers that control you, don't question them, and after death you'll go to some unproven wonderland, i swear. hell, come be my personal slave and the heaven you go to will be better than god's heaven; just "trust in me and don't you judge or question, you are broken now but faith can heal you, just do everything i tell you to do"

you're "deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow"

[---Beany---]

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you wanted a discussion.

I didn't realise you wanted to be a rude cocky twat.

^ Bravo on that btw.

Also you misunderstood/misread my post to the extent that most of your reply isn't worth correcting.

[I_Like_Traffic_Lights]

don't mind him that much beany, remember he has "the facts".

[d4v3]

ok, so how i about i break it down section by section. my replies come after the --

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

[b]So you're addressing this to believers of God and not just religeous people eh?

Do you think it's foolish to believe in a God that is the consciousness of nature. We are the consciousnous that controls our human nature, just as God is the consciousness that controls universal nature?

--What are we controlling? free will doesn't exist, we're just peices of the universal chemical reaction.

Why would a lifeform care about survival since it know it's gonna die itself? Where did the want of survival come from? If there is no conscious thought after death then logically a lifeform shouldn't care what happened afterwards. Why would we care what the state of affairs are to be when we aren't around to experience them? Could it be that at a deep level lifeforms know that they are a part of a universe that 'goes on'?

-- or maybe naive children are told that they're living for a life after death, so they don't concern themselves with their personal well being in life. work hard, question nothing.

When did lifeforms begin? By an accident of nature, or a reaction that had never happened before. Either way lifeforms are a product of nature. Lifeforms are nature. But why would we feel a need to survive? Because even if we die, nature still carries on.

If a boulder can fall without fear of splitting in two, why can't a man live without fear of death? I mean we are only products of nature aren't we? Our death won't stop nature so why fear it? Nature will still go on no matter which form it takes.

--maybe you fear death, but i find there to be no reason for it, other than you lose your life which is all you have. If anything, innate fear of death contradicts the idea of something after death, so you've contradicted yourself, bravo.

We are the same as nature. But if we are the same as nature, then that must mean that 'nature' wants to survive. But how could nature want to survive if it didn't have a consciousness?

--does a rock want to survive? it just is, as we just are. the survival instinct exists in all species so they don't simply die off, if animals weren't concerned with their survival then their species would become extinct. maybe the difference between living and non living is the will to carry on. nature carries on in any form seeing as nature is simply the interactions of matter. one big chemical reaction.

Lifeform cannot suddenly appear into existence unless it's a part of nature already. So the only way we can be different

to nature is if lifeform began as soon as time began. But we all know that our entire bodies are made from natural elements, so

if we are different from nature the only possible difference is consciousness (which controls the area of nature that is our bodies). But then that begs the question "Where did consciousness come from if it isn't a part of nature?".

Consciousness also cannot suddenly spring into existence so it must always have existed.

--yes, nothing that's not there can just come into existence, it's built of everything around it, and turns back into everything around it. it's called life cycles, sort of how rocks recycle back to sand then compress back into giant boulders. wow, that must mean that rocks always existed. Ever heard of a thing called evolution? no conciousness as "intelligent" as ours existed until apes evolved, the brain development is believed to have stemmed from the need to move around through trees at high speeds, forcing us to be able to take in and process information of our surroundings faster. are you trying to say that lifeforms have existed since the begining of time? what about when all the planets in the universe were just gasses being draw together in solids by the attractive force named gravity. lots of human consciousnesses around then? also, how can you claim that something just can't spring into existence. a chemical reaction occurs, and a new substance is created, thats sort of like springing. Obviously all matter existed at the begining of time, conciousness seems to have stemmed from complex arrangements of that matter. Maybe consciousness is an illusion of the complexity of the arrangement of the matter.

If consciousness is a product of nature, then nature must have a will to survive, therefore nature has a consciousness (God) and we are part of it.

--nature doesn't survive, it's all the non living things around us. nature exists on pluto, it's called ice. sort of how the antartic is a setting in nature, look at it's great will to survive. better stay away from the crackpipe buddy.

If consciousness is seperate from nature, then since consciousness cannot suddenly "spring from nothing" then it must

have always existed and since it isn't the same as nature, why should the laws of nature apply? including rules of time and space and death.

--ok, so rules don't apply to consciouness, that means that when you die your soul will go to heaven. because, you know, you're a phd in the nature of the universe and your ideas aren't just poorly reguritated ideas of someone else. try working in some logic instead of backwards logic, an example being "big fires need lots of firetrucks, so only send one firetruck to my fire and it will be small." this is pretty much all you've done, backwards and therefore incorrect logic.

B]

That specific enough for you?

By the way, whoever replied after you sarcastically mocking "my facts" prove me wrong buddy, i took the bare basic facts of nature as best understood by humanity, what do you have other than the programming you were subject to as a child "god exists, there's something more".

[I_Like_Traffic_Lights]

You appear (to me) to be stuck on your idea of reality that has been programed into you. The type to get lost in the language, it's not bad I've been there.

You actually remind me of me slightly less then a year ago keep searching. "let he who seeks continue to seek until he finds. When he finds he will become troubled, once troubled he will become astonished, and then he will rule over the all"

Consider that this is the "something more" you assumed was programmed into me. Consider the fact that energy and force can't be destroyed only changed (that's why we use pulleys and levarage and the like instead of magic). So why should your conscious life and death be different? So dependent on how you live your life your already in heaven/hell/limbo/whatever you like. I don't mean good/bad or any of that judgemental crap either, I mean using the energy of life that already exists and make the momentum swing with your heart's desire.

Remember you can do anything, it's just the consequences thing that bothers some people.

some people.

[---Beany---]

Dude, you seem pretty concrete with your answers. So if your not afraid of dying, why don't you tie them to your feet and jump off a bridge?

[d4v3]

traffic, about 6 months ago i just "let go". now the only moral that i posses is the will to not do harm to other living beings when unecessary.

we may be stuck on the idea of being programmed, but it's true. look into neurolinguistics and then see how easy manipluation through language is. if you haven't yet, check the post in the other thread, you may get a kick out of it.

[d4v3]

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Dude, you seem pretty concrete with your answers. So if your not afraid of dying, why don't you tie them to your feet and jump off a bridge?

i don't fear death, but why would i give up all that i have? the only certain in this world is this moment right now, to give up the moment would be to give up the only thing you truly have. only an idiot would say "i don't fear dying, so i'll do it" that's like saying i don't fear shark attacks, so i'll go out of my way to get attacked. you, beany, are a fool; plain and simple