On the Christian God:

[Hexadecimal]

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us? He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven. Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...

[Mike Dogg]

So axiomatic and yet so overlooked.



but ur going 2 hell anywayz for questoinig god d00d!!11

[Direckshun]

Good questions, Hex.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us?

The Bible gives no explanation of the why God created. Perhaps on this side of our death, we were not meant to know. It's probably something we'll find out on the other side.

But a common reason I've heard is that God created us because that is God's nature: to create. But I personally believe we cannot know God's reasons for creating us, except that our existence was intended for beneficial reasons. To who, or for what, I don't know. I'm sure love is in there somewhere.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven.

Well... not so much.

I mean, you're right, but our actions are still our own. We were created with free will, the ability to choose God or not to.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

First of all, God has never destined a single soul to Hell. But I know what you're asking: why would God create beings that have the possibility of going to Hell?

Well, I don't know. But the existence of Hell doesn't mean God is unjustified in creating us. Hell is literally defined in the Bible as a separation from God, and there are some legitimate interpretations I've read that suggest Hell isn't literally permanent.

God created beings with the ability to choose to love Him, and that He could love back. For those who do not choose Him, their option is a complete separation from Him.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.

Your first sentence is right, your second sentence is wrong. God knowing everything doesn't mean life is worthless. If anything, an omnibenevolent (all-good) God who created us, knowing our futures, should come across as great, meaningful news.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...

Suuuuuuure you can.

[Hexadecimal]

"Well... not so much.

I mean, you're right, but our actions are still our own. We were created with free will, the ability to choose God or not to."

If God is omniscient then we aren't free, making the Christian God inexistent; if we are free then God cannot know everything, and is therefor not omniscient, once again nullifying the Christian God. If everything is known then there can be no chaos in the happenings, everything would be predestined and enslaved to cause and effect; even God would not necessarily have free will if he's omniscient...he would know the perfect choice, and being an all-good God, would make the perfect choice every time. The Christian God is one giant paradox.

"Your first sentence is right, your second sentence is wrong. God knowing everything doesn't mean life is worthless. If anything, an omnibenevolent (all-good) God who created us, knowing our futures, should come across as great, meaningful news."

How should that come across as great and meaningful news? I find that to be meaningful news, but horrible still. If I have a future that is ordained by an omniscient being then I have no choice in the matter; I will succumb to a chain of cause and effect and lose my free will; that, my friend, is horrible news.

"Suuuuuuure you can. "

Hehe

[nevermind]

The bible speaks of god being a loving god. Hell is just a christian doctrine, it doesnt exist in the bible. God created us because he wanted others to experience the gift of life . He dont need us for anything.

[Nightingale]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The bible speaks of god being a loving god. Hell is just a christian doctrine, it doesnt exist in the bible. God created us because he wanted others to experience the gift of life . He dont need us for anything.

Firstly-

Hell is referred to in the bible, though it is most often called a 'lake of fire', or 'pit of fire'. It is not just something created for the Christian doctrine. Verses that contain references to Hell are Psalm 86:13, Matthew 8:12, and Jude 7.

Secondly-

It is stated in a basic way that God's wisdom is greater, and always has been, than that of the human race(1 Corinthians 2:1-16). Though He reveals parts of it to us, we do not have the ability to comprehend what exactly He's doing in that great big sky of His.

[theBishop]

I'm fairly sure it was Augustine who, after a lot of thought on the matter of free will and God's omniscience came to basically this conclusion:

God is the beginning and end of time, and obviously everything in between. For God, time isn't measured in minutes and seconds, and it's not sequential.

Think of a parade. We are members of the parade, we see people around us marching, and we see the parade move as we move. God has more of an aerial view of the parade. He sees the beginning and end and everything else all at once. And he makes sure the basic flow of the parade fits his plan. We still have a lot of freedom within our place.

Also, consider this. You're about to have a baby. You buy rubber bumpers to put on all your sharp edges, you put glass bottles out of reach, you put those plastic thingys in the electric outlets, etc. The baby can still do whatever he wants, but he won't be able to cause any real damage to your plans because of the safeguards you've put in place. This is how god treats us, we can still live meaningful lives, but the key parts of God's plan are still going to happen. Destiny as you put it, doesn't really exist in my opinion.

As for God's reason for creating us, i'm not sure there is a definite answer. Some possible answers are: it's God's nature to create, God created us to learn more about himself, God created us to worship him, etc. Maybe he just wanted to.

[ilbastardoh]

God made us because he only knows itself, not through experience, but through a state of being. God needs us to experience what becoming is. You know getting shot hurts like a bitch, but until someone shoots you in the leg you will never have the experience, it's like that.

[Dromiceius]

If god is omniscient, then technically his awareness already exists at the end of time, and logically would have already existed at that point when he created humans and the earth.

I guess what I'm saying is if god really did create people for some reason, then why did he pick these specific coordinates in the space-time continuum?

Obviously, any answer would be pure speculation, and amusing at best. Like maybe there's some profound logic behind it all, and there are vulcans and klingons in other galaxies, and the three galaxies form an equilateral triangle at some arbitrary point in time when all will become enlightened and meet god!

You see how easy it is to make up this garbage?

[ashesofzen]

Ah, now we get into the murky waters that are the precise definition of "omni_______."

(one may fill in is he or she wishes)