Knowledge Versus Faith

[Merlinman2005]

-Most people won't believe in god without Proof, right? Not Virgins in Tortillas. Not odd events in the hospital. Most people need actual physical proof. Concrete proof in their lives that God is real.

-But with that kind of proof comes Knowledge. And with knowledge, Faith ceases to be. Yet faith is something that most religions rely on (to screw you over, hehe), claiming that it is only with Faith that you show your unending trust in that invisible entity.

-So can we ever have proof that there is a God? If we did, and this proof was spread around the world, then everybody would know that they'd have to follow certain rules to get into heaven, or fear hell's eternal punishment.

-People would follow God's teachings. Some would turn to the Churches, some to the Bible. Life would be geared towards not wanting to go to Hell, making sure you make the right choices, because you now KNOW that He's there, keeping a list and checking it twice.

-Would God seem like a dictator then?

- What would the world be like if He came down, only for a second, made it so we wouldn't explode or go crazy by hearing His voice, said

"I'm real. So you know."

Created a dodo bird, or something. Deactivated all nuclear devices so we couldn't blow each other up. And then left, never to return.

[HomoBlaxican]

[among_the_living]

If we had 100% proof that could be tested that god was real, or even if he came down from wherever he is and performed impossible things that would basically prove he is god, there would still be people in the world who didnt believe in it, thats life.

Personally i think its a crock of shit.

[napoleon_complex]

You know, it's entirely possible for faith and knowledge to co-exist and work together.

[Merlinman2005]

But not in the religious way. Faith is another test of trust.

[The Blue Preacher]

God does not require blind obedience. Only that you believe what you know to be true.

[Merlinman2005]

-God's version of obedience isn't blind. He wants you to see the Goods in the world and attribute them to Him. You must renounce the Evils by calling upon God to help deter you from temptation.

-You need Faith that your soul was saved because Jesus died on the cross. If not, then he was just another guy that was crucified (which happened alot). You have to believe that your slate was wiped clean because of God's/Jesus's sacrifice.

-Have faith in the Bible's validity. Have faith in the teachings of the Church. Have Faith in God to get you out of trouble.

-Gotta have...faith.

[Aft3r ImaGe]

Sure your saying what you need to do to get in heaven but these things are all from the bible or priests. The bible wasn't written immediatly after christ died and was passed down generation after generation.

quote:"The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else."

[Thomas Paine, Age of Reason]

quote:"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."

[Thomas Paine, _The Age of Reason_]

One other interesting thing is god requires worship, if he is all powerful why is this? He is above pride and other sins so he shouldn't require worship.

quote:"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

[Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728]

And as an end note :

quote:"...Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas."

[Thomas Paine, Age Of Reason, pg. 54]

[Daz]

quote:God does not require blind obedience. Only that you believe what you know to be true.

Then God would require you to believe that he is not true and also to believe that only you are true - ultimatly leading to solipsism, because we can only know that we are true (i think therefore i am).

However, for this to happen you would have to believe God to be true in the first place so your definition of what to believe is circular.

God is true.

God requires that you believe what you know to be true.

You know god to be true. (how?? i don't know)

Therefore you believe in God

Even if you could somehow 'know god to be true' your entire system of belief relies on the assumption that God is true in the first place.

[IanBoyd3]

Alright, let me ask you religious folks something.

I kind of have a habit of digging to the root of things and pointing out flaws before everything gets going.

So let me ask you this.

What makes faith valuable?

Strange question, and at first glance it would seem obvious that faith is valuable. However, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

In keeping with my usual style, I'm going to respond to the likely responses a priori, saving your typing fingers from carpal tunnel. If you get carpal tunnel from typing, I'm not sure.

"Belief in God makes you a better person."

Alright, well what happens if I am smarter then that, and I don't need God to make me into the best person I can be? Doesn't it make me even stronger and better of a person if I can be good just for the virtue of good and to help others? That doesn't show any value in faith itself, it just shows that you need faith to get up in the morning.

Hmm, I actually can't think of any other responses because the reason I asked this question is because I can't figure out anything. Here's what I have to say about it though.

To have faith means to believe without knowing. You can claim to know that there is a God, but great job, you just destroyed your faith, and can't be saved. So why is there positive values associated with the fact that you just believe something?

By the way, since 99% of christian arguments are from this perspective, I need to add a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: You are not allowed to start your argument from the assumption that you are correct, that God exists, and that the bible is infallible. Sorry. We don't all agree with you, you don't just 'know' that you're right, you aren't special.

[SurahAhriman]

Oh, Ian. You're naievity regarding this forum is touching.

In the three yars I've been here, the closest to a hypothetical situation I even seen a Christian even understand was hyro admitting that absolute proof the Bible wasn't infalliable would distroy his faith.

I wish you luck, but I've been trying to get people to understand your disclaimer for years, so you'll forgive me for doubting it'll happen.