Non-Christian accounts of Jesus's miracles

[Fallen Seraph]

Does anyone know where I could find some non-Christian accounts of Jesus's miracles exist or where I could find them (preferably not on a website run by christians) ?

[This message has been edited by Fallen Seraph (edited 04-18-2006).]

[Elephantitis Man]

There are none. There's the Gospel in the Bible, the gnostic gospels (which are declared heretic by the church), and some ancient Hindu writing of a 'St. Essa' who ventured through the east during the time at which Jesus would have been a young man (but they paint an entirely different picture of Jesus than that in the Bible). Other than those, I'm pretty sure there are no other accounts.

[Iam]

St. Isa*. However, if what you mean is: "Does anyone know where I can find some non-Biblical accounts," there are lots for you to read. I don't see what the big deal of it being a non-Christian source at all though. Like.. no ties to Christianity. If someone were to witness great miracles like those performed by Jesus today (Raising the dead, curing leprosy, etc) and that person was preaching a religion, I fucking guarantee they'd follow him.

So, IMO, any text you find regarding his miracles will have been written by someone who was Christian to some extent. There were at one time, hundreds of texts of Jesus in circulation. I think that would be evidence enough to believe them.

If we suddenly found, buried in the ocean, hundreds of texts in which the authors claimed to be from Atlantis.. That would probably comprise enough evidence to believe in the existence of Atlantis.

[IanBoyd3]

quote:Originally posted by Iam:



If we suddenly found, buried in the ocean, hundreds of texts in which the authors claimed to be from Atlantis.. That would probably comprise enough evidence to believe in the existence of Atlantis.

If we found it nowadays, hopefully we would be able to test if it was a hoax or not before any sheep jump into belief in it. And no, just that would not be enough. We would need to thoroughly test it and make sure it all adds up to a place and try to find it and see if it was possible.

It would be enough evidence for someone who wants to believe in atlantis.

[Fallen Seraph]

I'm looking for something like a Roman writer who says "Jesus allegedly raised lazarus from the dead" or something to that effect.

Also Iam, could you kindly point me in the direction of these other accounts you speak of? It sounds like it might be along the lines of what I seek.

[This message has been edited by Fallen Seraph (edited 04-19-2006).]

[Dre Crabbe]

Pliny the Younger, Tacitus and someone else who I can't remember wrote about him. They only mention him along the lines when talking about christians. I only personally read Pliny's texts, although I read the content of the other authors' texts in Dutch.

Pliny sent a letter to emperor Trajan, asking him what to do with christians, as he was governing the province of Pontus et Bythinia in modern Turkey, where christians were a minority in the first century AD. He describes that they pray peacefully, not really bothering anyone ( pagans were more tolerant, most of the time they just believed in all gods ). Trajan says to leave them alone.

He describes their customs, what ceremonies they do, and who they worship. He only mentions Jesus very, very briefly. Briefly as in, five sentences. That he was a carpenter, and allegedly performed miracles, I think.

Don't flame me if this isn't 100% correct, it's been a few years since I read those texts in school. And one of them I had to translate myself on an exam, so I don't even know if that part's correct, heh . Although most of what I wrote comes from texts we corrected with the teacher.



[This message has been edited by Dre Crabbe (edited 04-19-2006).]

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah, I've come across tacitus in my searchings and he doesn't seem to be quite as "explicit" as I'd like... I could just be on a wild goose chase.

[Iam]

Well, most (if not all) of the apostles and early converts to the religion were Jews who recognized Jesus as the messiah. These are all accounts of people who converted to 'Christianity' upon witness of Jesus's deeds. Would they have followed him if he really didn't do them? Then you have some Apocryphal texts of accounts of Jesus like the Gospel of Bartholomew, the Gospel of the Ebionites, The Gospel of Nicodemus, The Gospel of the Hebrews... You could look at infancy Gospels but I really don't pay much mind to them, it seems more speculation on his childhood than they are accounts. The Acts of John, Peter, Paul, Andrew, and Thomas mention some deeds/miracles of Jesus though they are primarily considered with accounting whatever the apostle of the text did. These are ones you can look at that I know of, a vast collection was lost but we know the existed based on some various historical documents around the time, such as Irenaeus's "Against Heresies." Yes... he regarded all of the non-canonical texts of the day as heresies, but his motivation was not really spiritual truth in determining which to follow, but a matter of politics... That's a lesson for another day though (and one I'm extremely interested in).

I hope you can use those! Good luck in your quest my friend.

-Edit to Ian: Uh.. for our knowledge of many historical figures' existence we only have texts to go on. Homer, Socrates, Plato.. It's all just numerous texts that claim their existence. The only tests that have been done have been dating texts, which have also been done on the gospels and have confirmed the dates ranged from around 75 A.D. (Mark) to late second century with John. I fail to see any difference.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 04-19-2006).]

[SurahAhriman]

Dre, Tacitus and Josephus supposedly wrote about him, but those passages were almost certainly added in at a later date, and have been discredited. Check out "Tacitus on Jesus" and "Josephus on Jesus" on wikipedia.

Frankly, theres just as much historical evidence for Heracles as there is for Jesus, and Heracles even gains the edge in not having mundane facts about his life be overtly incorrect. Look at the Roman census that supposedly occurred at Jesus's birth. It couldn't have happened for a number of reasons.

[hyroglyphx]

1.Flavius Josephus: (37 AD – 101 AD) Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born four years after Jesus’ physical death. As evidenced by his writings, Josephus was quite familiar with the turmoil in Palestine during the Roman occupation. As well, Josephus wrote about central figures of the New Testament period.

a.Josephus makes mention of John the Baptist: “Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, called the Baptists: For Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God. And so to come to Baptism; for the washing would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away of some sins, but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly cleansed beforehand by righteousness.”

b.Josephus makes mention of Jesus: “Now, there was about that time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as to receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had him condemned to the cross. Those that loved him did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again on the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct to this day.”

c.Josephus makes mention of James, the brother of Jesus: “Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned; but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.”

d.Josephus makes mention of Ananias, the High Priest: “Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias, he increased in glory every day, and this to a degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder of money.”

2.Tacitus: (55 AD – 117 AD) Tacitus was a Roman historian who makes mention of the early Christians.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians, by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had it’s origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontious Pilate. A most mischievous superstition, thus checked for a moment, broke out again not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular… And perishing they were additionally made into sports: they were killed by dogs by having the hides of beasts attached to them, or they were nailed to crosses or set aflame, and, when the daylight passed away, they were used as nighttime lamps… people began to pity these sufferers, because, they were consumed not for the public good but on account of the fierceness of one man.”

3.Thallus: (52 AD) Thallus was a historian who wrote about the Eastern Mediteranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Here, Thallus records an eclipse of the sun, contemporaneous with the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.” In addition, this was also recorded in Luke’s gospel. What is most interesting is that Jesus was crucified on the Passover, which is on a full moon. It is not physically possible for an eclipse to occur on a full moon. “And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until about the ninth hour, the sun being obscured; and a veil of the Temple was torn in two.” –Luke 23:44-45

4.Pliny the Younger: (112 AD) Pliny was the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He here, in his tenth book, makes mention of Jesus. “They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor dent a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

5.The Babylonian Talmud: (33 AD) This is the actual recording by the very men that ordered the execution of Jesus. “On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything on his behalf, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.” Therefore, we see that Jesus was crucified for supposedly leading others away from the Law and for sorcery. This corroborates the gospels magnificently, as we see extra-biblical evidence of His miracles and of His teachings, even though He did NOT teach against the Law. “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, ‘Cursed is every one who hangs from a tree.” –Galatians 3:13

6.Lucian: (120 AD – 180 AD) Lucian, a Greek writer and rhetorician, speaks of the early Christians. “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures’s start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them. And then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and to deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they quite take on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”