Is this actually true?

[Haddock]

Something someone submitted to my website:

"I've noticed recently that most practising christians know almost nothing about the technicalities of their religion. For instance: the Bible never, ever says that Jehovah is all-powerful or even the only god in existence, merely that you shouldn't worship other ones instead. And that of all the names most people would give for the Devil, only Azazel the least well known (to the point of obscurity) could actually be considered a malign being from what is given in the bible. Satan is in fact an Angel who's job is to report the indescretions of mankind to Jehovah (incidentally implying he isn't all-powerful), and Lucifer is never, ever mentioned in any biblical text. There's a good reason for this, it's the name of a Roman god. But ask any christian and I bet they'll give you one of the above names.

And of course, the word Hell is never mentioned since that too was stolen. And there are rather more than 10 commandments, several hundred in fact, especially if you include the repititions which are scarily common.

Oh and there are absolutely NO eye-witness accounts of any event in Jesus' life. None. Everything that was written about him was at least 60 years later, which was about 3 generations back then.



Random ranting. At least I posted something."

So, is it true?

[Fate]

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

...and Lucifer is never, ever mentioned in any biblical text. There's a good reason for this, it's the name of a Roman god.

Close.

I'm fairly certain the name Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah 14:12. The kids at home with their copies of the King James will find this:

quote:12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This single passage is the entire basis for the concept of "Lucifer" as the Devil in the Christian bible. The message of somebody (whoever "Lucifer" may be) aspiring to surpass or at the very least pass himself off as equal to god is clear. What is not clear, however, is exactly who this Lucifer person is. Various rabbinic bickerings hold the popular notion that Lucifer is the Devil (or more correctly, the Satan), originally one of the angels of heaven who pissed off god and got cast into hell.

However, this isn't supported by any literature that I know of.

Historical scholars believe that the passage refers not to any supernatural entity but merely a Roman king by that or a similar name who... well, pissed off gog and got cast into hell.

You can take your pick. But it's all the supporting literature out of the canon that we've got.

You're correct in your statement that most of what the modern world imagines when they think of hell and the Devil/Satan is primarly made up after the fact, either through word of mouth and preachings or non-canonical literature (like Dante's Inferno, among oodles of others).

[Beta69]

quote:Satan is in fact an Angel who's job is to report the indescretions of mankind to Jehovah (incidentally implying he isn't all-powerful),

Partially correct.

Satan is a term to mean against God, or disagreeing with God. There is an angel that plays "devils advocate" as it were with God and is thus satan.

quote:and Lucifer is never, ever mentioned in any biblical text. There's a good reason for this, it's the name of a Roman god. But ask any christian and I bet they'll give you one of the above names.

Incorrect. Lucifer is mentioned in isaiah 14. Although most christians don't seem to have read the chapter as we discover Lucifer is the nickname of an evil king and not a supernatural being or angel.

The famed fall of the angel lucifer from heaven to hell is not biblical.

[King_Cotton]

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

Oh and there are absolutely NO eye-witness accounts of any event in Jesus' life. None. Everything that was written about him was at least 60 years later, which was about 3 generations back then.

John was the caretaker of Mary and one of the twelve apostles. Matthew was an apostle. Mark was a close follower of Jesus and is present throughout the Gospels.

[Aft3r ImaGe]

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

John was the caretaker of Mary and one of the twelve apostles. Matthew was an apostle. Mark was a close follower of Jesus and is present throughout the Gospels.

I think he was refering to the new testament being written which was infact generations later.

[King_Cotton]

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

I think he was refering to the new testament being written which was infact generations later.

Those are three of the gospelwriters. They were first-generation Christians.

[Interest]

I can't find a bit of truth in any of it.

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

Something someone submitted to my website:

"I've noticed recently that most practising christians know almost nothing about the technicalities of their religion.

I would not say "most" but a small minority do not know the technicalities of Christianity but, not knowing every single detail is not a condition of salvation nor faith.

quote:

For instance: the Bible never, ever says that Jehovah is all-powerful or even the only god in existence, merely that you shouldn't worship other ones instead.

Incorrect, Rev. 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega." says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty"

WHat is meant by other gods is idol worship not that there are other Gods but other things that compete with God.

"There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 4:28-29 (read the entire chapter for a better understanding)

quote:

And that of all the names most people would give for the Devil, only Azazel the least well known (to the point of obscurity) could actually be considered a malign being from what is given in the bible.

This isn't very clear but there are many names given to the devil throughout the bible.

quote:

Satan is in fact an Angel who's job is to report the indescretions of mankind to Jehovah (incidentally implying he isn't all-powerful), and Lucifer is never, ever mentioned in any biblical text.

I have no idea where this is in the bible, I can't find anywhere that says the devil is working for God but everything says that the devil is working against God. Satan is in fact a fallen angel but stands as an enemy to God and to those who are His. The bible does say he accuses the breatheren night and day but nothing about being a spy for God.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"Isaiah 14:12 KJV

quote:

There's a good reason for this, it's the name of a Roman god. But ask any christian and I bet they'll give you one of the above names.

Didn't the Roman's have many gods? Jupiter, Juno, Mars, Venus, Minerva, Neptune, Ceres, Vulcan, Diana, Bacchus, Mercury, vesta...but no Lucifer.

quote:

And of course, the word Hell is never mentioned since that too was stolen.

Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Isaiah 5:14Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Just to name a few....

quote:

And there are rather more than 10 commandments, several hundred in fact, especially if you include the repititions which are scarily common.

Almost true. The first of the 10 commandments were treated seperatly from the rest as they lay down the morale laws of God. They were the first 10 that were written on the tablets. It is true that God gave more then the first 10 commandments afterwards but they were referred to as laws and statutes as well. Some consider them to be the civil and ceremonial laws for the Jews.

quote:

Oh and there are absolutely NO eye-witness accounts of any event in Jesus' life. None. Everything that was written about him was at least 60 years later, which was about 3 generations back then.

It is plain to see that Jesus called the 12 disciples to follow Him. Matthew was a tax collector and was a discple of Jesus. It is the first hand gospel account -

Mark was not a disicple but accompanied Paul on his first missionary trip. This doesn't say that Mark was not a first hand witness, it just says he wrote it 30 years after the fact. Luke was a doctor who researched the events by having access to the discples. He traveled with Paul and recorded the accounts of the disciples. Luke 1:1-4 tells us his testimony of his research.

John is an apostle and is an eyewitness to the miracles performed by Jesus.

quote:

Random ranting. At least I posted something."

So, is it true?

No, it is not.

[fullywired]

The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. Yet even today, we hear priests and ministers describing these authors as the actual disciples of Christ. Many Bibles still continue to label the stories as "The Gospel according to St. Matthew," "St. Mark," "St. Luke," St. John." No apostle would have announced his own sainthood before the Church's establishment of sainthood. But one need not refer to scholars to determine the lack of evidence for authorship. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.

Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider that the average life span of humans in the first century came to around 30, and very few people lived to 70. If the apostles births occured at about the same time as the alleged Jesus, and wrote their gospels in their old age, that would put Mark at least 70 years old, and John at over 110.

[bushy]

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Those are three of the gospelwriters. They were first-generation Christians.

Actual they were 60 years later, written by the apostles of the apostles, because, well the apostles probably could not write.

[Beta69]

quote:I have no idea where this is in the bible, I can't find anywhere that says the devil is working for God but everything says that the devil is working against God.

Read Job

You will see that when God calls his angels together satan comes with them and is part of Gods court. However unlike the other angels he seeks out the sins of people and the hypocritical actions.

quote:"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"Isaiah 14:12 KJV

I said earlier: "Although most christians don't seem to have read the chapter as we discover Lucifer is the nickname of an evil king and not a supernatural being or angel."

maybe read the entire chapter and not just single verses. In context we see that Lucifer was a king who wanted to become so powerful he would ascend to heaven and take the throne, but God cut him down from this dream and destroyed him.