A Conversation with an Atheist:
Abrahim says:
So what did you expect to talk to me about when you originally messaged me?
.com.au says:
I dunno, metaphysics
Abrahim says:
what are you beliefs? what about metaphysics?
.com.au says:
well I'm an atheist
Abrahim says:
but you believe in Reality right? You arent one of those guys who say they "might not exist" right?
.com.au says:
well define reality
Abrahim says:
like this...you me, screen, hand
.com.au says:
of course I believe in an external reality
Abrahim says:
yeah
.com.au says:
I just don't subscribe to that reality such anthropomorphic qualities as sapience
Abrahim says:
what is sapience?
.com.au says:
the abillity to think often confused with sentience which is the abillity to feel pain
Abrahim says:
sa·pi·ent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sp-nt)
adj.
Having great wisdom and discernment.
sapience
n : ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight
well we have sapience
some of us lol
sen·tience ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snshns, -sh-ns)
n.
The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.
So you don't believe in the consciousness of Reality?
.com.au says:
no anymore than I believe in the conciousness of a canvas or text editor
Abrahim says:
what paints the canvas and edits the text? I believe the "consciousness" if any, in Reality can be seen in everything, that fact that we are alive and able to function and move and everything is moving, that if Reality or what we Exist within was dead, or unscious, nothing would exist, or move, or happen
.com.au says:
but it's a backdrop
Abrahim says:
yeah its the background I mean its what everything exists withing within
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
what everything is made of what everything is connected to what allows the rain to fall, the planets to orbit (yes there are there foremost reasons such as gravity and all that but I mean as a Backdrop it is what provides all possibilities available for us to think or do, if the possibility is unavailable we cant do it or think it even) That Reality is the most powerful thing, what has everything within it, within its "control" in a sense. That there is No God or Controller within it, it is self sufficient the most massive and infinite, the only thing worthy to submit to
.com.au says:
I dunno about that to submit to it it must have sapience or a will
Abrahim says:
why? Submit to Reality. whats the big deal about that?
.com.au says:
if it has no desires, they cannot be fufilled
Abrahim says:
im talking about us
.com.au says:
well what do you mean
Abrahim says:
you and me, Reality the backdrop to all things. Submitting to it is becoming one with it, one with oneself, being humble. not thinking you are beyond what is real, living truth
.com.au says:
well I don't that's why I'm a materialist as in the mind thing take that descartes
Abrahim says:
I think therefor I am?
.com.au says:
naw ghost in the machine
Abrahim says:
which one is that? I just know about the Anime lol
.com.au says:
htt p://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_%28philosophy_of_mind%29
Abrahim says:
what is it in summary?
.com.au says:
In the philosophy of mind, dualism is a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical. [1]
Abrahim says:
hehe yes
Abrahim says:
In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of material. ok BUT what is a thought composed of? like the thoughts going through your head now
its not made of matter, nor is it made of matter, if you superimpose, with your mind and imagination, an image onto the wall, say a dragon, I dont think its made of matter, but its there, that imagination, that imaginary image
.com.au says:
electrical pulses neurons and all that
Abrahim says:
those are the pulses, yeah but those are its own things, electrical pulses are electrical pulses
.com.au says:
I suppose it's rather reductionist
Abrahim says:
from what matter is that imagination made of? what you see in your imagination?
.com.au says:
but you asked me what it's made out of not what it is there is a substantial difference
Abrahim says:
I asked what a thought is composed of, you answered electrical impulses and neurons and all that, but I meant what is that super imposed image on the wall of the dragon in your imagination, and I mean the actual image there, what it is composed of, that the electrical impulses and neurons ALLOW you to think it, and see it, and experience it, but the electrical impulses are only electrical impulses, from what MATTER is that imaginary image composed, and I mean the actual image, not its root cause
.com.au says:
what do you mean your asking me to apply reductionist thinking to a holistic concept
Abrahim says:
im just asking a question lol whats your thought on that?
.com.au says:
well quite simply I ask you what the book '1984' is made out of you reply paper and ink I say that that is unacceptable because I'm asking what the characters and story of 1984 is made of and it's not made up of anything because it's a holistic concept but if we want to break it down we'll find that what gives it form is paper and ink and without it manifesting in paper and ink the characters, the story, would not exist
Abrahim says:
Matter is commonly defined as the substance of which physical objects are composed. It constitutes the observable Universe. I do not believe it is what "Only" exists rather that, There is the Observable, and the Unobservable.
.com.au says:
matter's the only thing that exists in external reality or the physical world
Abrahim says:
Some things Unobservable can be manifested through the manipulation of materials. In my Definition of Reality, as a Whole, are included The Physical and the Non Physical. Everything you can possibly DO, or THINK.
.com.au says:
define un observable
Abrahim says:
being an available option or else it wouldnt be able to happen unobservable are your thoughts, I mean your actual thoughts, like the dragon on the wall
.com.au says:
those are observable
Abrahim says:
no not the content they arent
.com.au says:
the processes are observable, the compositions is observable and the images are observable as well as what causes them
Abrahim says:
what? how are? if you superimpose in your imagination a dragon on the wall who else can see that?
.com.au says:
nobody but I can still observe it and wonder why I'm thinking about it
Abrahim says:
that dragon is not matter the dragon itself
.com.au says:
I never said it was
Abrahim says:
but it exists
.com.au says:
not really
Abrahim says:
yes really it exists within reality
.com.au says:
it doesn't exist in objective reality and it won't until I draw it and make it manifest using physical tools
Abrahim says:
but in Reality as a whole, which you and the dragon and the possibility for you to think and see the dragon exist so it is a part of Reality as a whole. which you belong to
.com.au says:
the dragon doesn't exist objectively it only exists inside my mind
Abrahim says:
im talking about REALITY as a whole, which whatever can possibly happen inside your mind can happen because reality allows it to happen its a part of reality the whole
.com.au says:
so both subjective and objective?
Abrahim says:
Im saying Reality encompasses ALL, subjective, objective, what you think, what you do, what you see what is here what is there, what is inside your "mind" and what happens with your brain
.com.au says:
mmhmm
Abrahim says:
Reality is not ONLY composed of Matter, it encompasses what is tangible and testable, physical and material, and what is not.
.com.au says:
well if you wish to define it as such I'm not going to disagree with you
Abrahim says:
hehe kl what else would you call it? Rather than reality?
.com.au says:
the total sum of subjective thought processes combined with all physical existence
Abrahim says:
Reality is what all that we know and don't yet know and may never know exists within, what all possible things that can possibly exist, exist within, what possibilities have not happened but can happen exist within, what all possible thoughts you can possibly think exist within
it encompasses everything absolutely everything and that is just our reality
.com.au says:
well if you wish to define it as such I won't disagree with you
Abrahim says:
lol k Reality in everyday usage means "everything that exists". The term reality, in its widest sense, includes everything that is, whether it is observable, accessible or understandable by science, philosophy, or any other system of analysis. Reality in this sense may include both being and nothingness, whereas existence is often restricted to being (compare with nature).
.com.au says:
yeah I can agree with that
Abrahim says:
yay so thats what I believe in too that it is the ultimate thing the most "powerful" people say they would call a big thing coming from the sky God but I wouldnt, because if something big came from the sky, it would still be smaller and within Reality the possibility for it to exist even etc etc whatever variations. The only God, The most powerful thing, The thing which allows us to do what we can do and think is Reality. It is not some man controlling us in the sky, but what we've discussed
.com.au says:
so you define god as the total sum of all thought processes combined with all things in existence but concious
Abrahim says:
concious in the way that Reality is active or else there wouldnt be this
.com.au says:
k I suppose we can avoid an entire minefield by avoiding anthropomorphizing this backdrop? by not
Abrahim says:
could you elaborate on that? whatcha mean?
.com.au says:
well as you define reality can we avoid giving it preference? that is, reality is impartial to all forms of actions, thoughts and emotions, basically what I'm trying to say is can we exclude reality as you define it from having one dominant preference that isn't part of what the thinkers prefer
Abrahim says:
Reality allows everything we are capable of doing or thinking each
.com.au says:
right
Abrahim says:
its preference is what is under dispute if it has any
.com.au says:
but we aren't going to anthropomorphize it right?
Abrahim says:
just as soon as we do open war begins lol
.com.au says:
that is assume that in thinks like a human it
Abrahim says:
it doesnt think like a human a guarantee
.com.au says:
cool
Abrahim says:
but perhaps our creations have intentions I mean, penis for vagina etc even though the penis can go in the ear
.com.au says:
I dunno yeah
Abrahim says:
its not intended for that
.com.au says:
but it can
Abrahim says:
it allows it
.com.au says:
maybe anatomy is less the result of intention as it is the result of maximum survival advantage
Abrahim says:
I dont believe in a human consciousness that sits around thinking like us and making intentions, I know that the possibilities for our evolution were limited what I mean to say is all the conditions in reality the possibilities that played
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
allowed for us to happen this way
.com.au says:
of course
Abrahim says:
but that there are no strange oddities that I know of in the system such as me suddenly talking to you then you totally dissapearing from where you are without moving etc etc like gaps or anything, nothing we are aware of at least, meaning it limited the options for this reality of ours
.com.au says:
we could say that there is only one option
Abrahim says:
it didnt let the possibility of all possibilities to play at once
.com.au says:
go all deterministic
Abrahim says:
yeah im not sure, I mean I dont want to give murderers excuses lol
.com.au says:
just because something happens doesn't mean it's right I mean hell, nature is full of disease, pestilence, famine corruption and destruction
Abrahim says:
what would be most "wrong" is in a dynsfunction or broken system
.com.au says:
doesn't mean any of these things are right
Abrahim says:
but I think those are part
.com.au says:
just means they happen
Abrahim says:
they certainly arent bad in my opinion but factors which have so far, or seemingly, kept the balance of things
.com.au says:
yeah the important thing is that it's a bitch to find a pattern in nature or intent in nature we could almost say that it has no intent reality that is now, to find out possible reasons why freak occurences aren't occuring
Abrahim says:
well the only intent I see is in that it exists, that it is active, and that it is FUNCTIONING properly, with no glitches, it is smooth.
.com.au says:
I posit various laws of physics to explain this phenomona
Abrahim says:
well yes those are part of reality but I am aware that it has not allowed the possibility for all possibilities to play at once, or the possibility for GLITCHES or GLITCHES that we can observe or test such as...blip the computer screen is gone suddenly WTFs etc lol so in that sense it is very smooth and is not wild or chaotic as some claim which brings us back to its "conciousness" and design, only visible in its limitations for our reality. its lack of glitches and chaos
.com.au says:
hmm well a good explanation would be that it is self-contained and unreachable by anything outside
Abrahim says:
well in my opinion there is absolutely nothing but Absolute Ultimate Reality, we being just part of it, this universe being a portion but not the whole who knows how many other possibilities completely different
.com.au says:
maybe but plurality should not be posited unnecessarily
Abrahim says:
whatcha mean?
.com.au says:
okkams razor: all other things being equal, choose the explanation that makes the least unfounded assumptions
Abrahim says:
oh I dont know if its unfounded to say our reality is limited, controlled, unchaotic(no glitches)
.com.au says:
I never said it wasn't
Abrahim says:
yep
.com.au says:
I'm saying it's unfounded to submit other worlds that are in effect, un observable and unverifiable
Abrahim says:
oh ok yeah I was just stating for some food for thought
Abrahim says:
lol
.com.au says:
so this could be the only possible world but that leaves little room for choice
Abrahim says:
we dont know about the others, We will never know about other Realities within the Ultimate Reality.
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
We do have a whole gamut of options at any moment, we can perform one, rather like a snapshot of multiple tasks at once but I mean its one frame.
.com.au says:
as we cannot verify the existence of other realities we'll just apply okkams razor and say that they do not exist for the present
Abrahim says:
one frame at a time, every moment
.com.au says:
if we find any evidence at all that they do exist we'll rethink that statement
Abrahim says:
we cant how can you?
[email protected] says:
no idea
Abrahim says:
another reality is beyond the possibility of existing within this reality or processing
.com.au says:
kind of a bitch aint it?
Abrahim says:
if we are able to process it then it is part of this reality.
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
in any case what is for sure is there is one Ultimate Reality to which we, and what we know, and what we can do possibly and think possibly, exist within.
.com.au says:
yeah and that reality is expanding all the time
Abrahim says:
I say rather that the universe is expanding and that Reality is stable. our Reality is Stable, the universe being within Reality, the Universe expanding.
.com.au says:
yeah but the range of what we can think and do is getting bigger all the time
Abrahim says:
but I do believe those possibilities were ALWAYS available to us, that no "new" possibilities are added. That at the time no humans existed, the possibility for massive towering structures made by "humans" did exist or any other creature that may have appeared who knows the possibility possibilities yes our range of understanding is growing constantly and stuff like that but the possibilities, what is possible, have been part of this reality always none being added, subtracted in the sense that once a possibility is performed in that frame no other possibilities can be performed that frame is past that moment click click click and within the possibilities are a whole gamut of thoughts we can possibly think, some of which some of us have already thought
.com.au says:
so other realities can be discerned by a simple game of "what if"
Abrahim says:
Ultimate Reality is one, Our Reality is also one but is part of Ultimate Reality, I do not know if other Realities and universes or possibilities exist that we will never be aware of since our reality can not process or connect to it but all belong within the Jurisdiction of Ultimate Reality which is essentially All there is and Every Was and All that can possibly Be.
.com.au says:
which encompasses all possible scenarios
Abrahim says:
yep
.com.au says:
and manifests itself in our reality
Abrahim says:
what does?
.com.au says:
ultimate reality
Abrahim says:
yes our specific Reality is made of Ultimate Reality, Existing Within Ultimate Reality, is one of the possibilities clearly Encompassed by Ultimate Reality, How do we know? Because here we are.
.com.au says:
right
Abrahim says:
Also within the possibilities of Reality are you and me having this conversation, and human religions all of them, those that exist, and do not exist, and all potential concepts of a "God"
.com.au says:
except logically contradictory attributes which are of course, impossible
Abrahim says:
yeah but the possibility for people to think of them, write them, accept them, imagine them and all that etc etc and I personally think these ideas about Reality are not entirely new or alien to history but rather that people have thought it, realized it, some even explained it, others misunderstood it, and made concepts that were humanized to make others understand, metaphors, which later ended up degrading the essential message, people
.com.au says:
kinda sucks
Abrahim says:
yeah lol Most people religious, and some non religious, say they image or would accept a God that is within Reality which to me would mean it is limited, and nothing is beyond Ultimate Reality
.com.au says:
right
Abrahim says:
so that Ultimate Reality is the highest thing, the ONLY thing essentially when you get right down to it
Abrahim says:
The True One.
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
So the question comes, does Ultimate reality communicate with what is within it? It is "Alive" in the sense that we are alive and functioning and that everything is in constant motion. But does it communicate with us? How can we ever know if it does? It certainly can not Communicate with us as you and I communicate with each other, it lacks any form and is what we are within, it is beyond us. What it CAN do is allow for people to concieve of the possibility of its existence and for people to, to some degree, comprehend it
.com.au says:
mm so god exists because I can conceive it?
Abrahim says:
Ultimate Reality exists even if you can't concieve of it as a thought
.com.au says:
right
Abrahim says:
and there are a whole bunch of Gods a practically infinite number of possibilities we can think of as Gods
.com.au says:
so
Abrahim says:
the only True God in my Opinion being what all those possibilities are within, Ultimate Reality.
.com.au says:
so all that there is, was, and can possibly be that is god right?
Abrahim says:
yeah, what we've discussed as Ultimate Reality, what has our Reality within it, and our Universe and what everything is made of and all that
.com.au says:
cool
Abrahim says:
that we are all part of the same thing but just part we are not the whole of it and essentially there is no break in it, its all one whole
.com.au says:
well yours is certainly not the god of philosophers or abraham
Abrahim says:
im not sure about that
.com.au says:
well they assume a somewhat limited god at least abraham did with the jealousy and the burning bush's and all that crazy jazz
Abrahim says:
lol yeah if what is written is true, I am uncertain about those things origins I mean to say if Abraham, if he existed, what he thought himself or what he was told what I know is that its been a long time since then long in our terms at least
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
and that alot has probably been altered in re writings and with misunderstandings
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
for all I know, the real Abraham couldve been talking about the same God as me and humans simply misunderstood in retellings or the story or to make it easier to understand for other people simply made the God more humanized especially for translations and in language shifts I tried to explain this to a person who spoke english in Norway but they could not at all comprehend what I was saying lol so to explain it in a humanized way might have been easier etc even though I personally didnt. It is a possibility within Reality that some can come to this understanding and attempt to assist others to learn, or that one might be in a form of "direct" communication through "inspiration" its our mind doing the work and the processing of all the info, its the info within reality to decipher if it is true or not is left to us what we accept as true possibly is within the jurisdiction of Reality. Can Ultimate Reality aka God manifest its entire self in something? No, not more than it already is everything, everything made of it, everything a manifestion within reality. so that dispels any God within Reality.
.com.au says:
any special thing
Abrahim says:
can it communicate? Yes, in a sense of inspiration of truth, the human does the thinking, the possibility provided by ultimate reality.
.com.au says:
the burning bush story assumed that god was outside of it all
Abrahim says:
in the case of Moses he was apparently the only one whom manifested as part of his "inspiration" an actual voice all possible "miracles" are within the realm of physics and reality still I dont think there has ever been a miracle so absurd or out of wack like a person just dissapearing zapped out of existance lol its always something within reality, something possible, something capable of happening physically and existing within reality
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
If they happened or not, I wasn't there what is written so far and accepted by many are things that are always within physical limits and possibilities for the most part I do believe true prophets, "inspired" if their true texts and what originally was given and all that, I do believe they preach this in what way they can but also made in a way that one can understand inspiration not coming in the form of a series of digits 45923=4-59=3-592=592=591=-924=194=19 or whatever but clearly in a form that the individual himself and the people around him can understand because it was the persons mind doing the work the processing, the computing, the speaking, the possibility was Ultimate Realities, as we can not manifest or create anything, nor can we produce possibilities that were not already there so the ultimate credit of the inspiration goes to Ultimate Reality "God" though the person did the physical work of it the thinking, and maybe not so directly thinking or trying to think
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
but the speaking, the processing and all that
.com.au says:
but that's like saying the credit for mona lisa goes to red, blue, yellow and canvas and because viewing it in unfiltered form is rather plain
Abrahim says:
the Credit for the Mona Lisa goes ultimate to Ultimate Reality, which allowed the possibility for his hands to move, the image to appear that way and the paint to settle that way, his mind to think the thoughts it thought and the possibility of the name Mona Lisa and all the other factors that went into it
.com.au says:
right
Abrahim says:
but the artist did the processing and the work and toiled and all that and made it some might Thank God for it, that wouldnt be so far from appropriate, hehehe if they understand at least
.com.au says:
yeah
Abrahim says:
I honestly dont believe that the prophets sat there and thought it out and then claimed it was inspiration so much as a kind of clear consciousness "inspiration" which can be translated as "communication" but rather "understanding"
.com.au says:
I mean the canvas and thr primary colours of dye granted the possibility of the mona lisa happening
Abrahim says:
yep
.com.au says:
but da-vinci made it stand out
Abrahim says:
and the ultimate reality granted the possibility for Da Vinci to make it stand out
.com.au says:
right damn you and your linguistic trickery
Abrahim says:
what would be a word for me? to describe me based on what you have experienced with me so far?
.com.au says:
zen on LSD
Abrahim says:
hahaha good one I like that
"
When I say Reality, I mean Reality as in everything that exists, our reality, included is what we can possibly do, all our options, and what we can possibly think or imagine too. If the possibility for us to think something didn't exist, we could never concieve the thought. Reality is what all the options we know, and those we do not yet know, all the possibilities exist within. It is Physical, and it is Non Physical, it is what was before, what is now, what is to possibly come after. It is the perfect system in which we exist, completely smooth in its movement and motion. It was what our Reality, Universe exists within, it is the Ultimate Reality, that is God. In that sense it is in control of absolutely everything since it is what manifested all the possibilities we have, it is the plain in which the universe can exist, and nothing can exist without reality. Reality is the base, self sufficient, without it, nothing would have ever happened or be available to happen. If it were "dead" or non existant, so too would we be non existant, nothing can only provide nothing, only nothing can exist within nothing, something can not come from nothing. Reality is the base, it has always existed, and will always exist, it is infinite, all encompassing, everything is made of it and within it, completely dependant on it, any other "God" is a false God, it is the ONE, the True."
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