pre-destination/free will

SmokingSalmon · #1 2006-10-27, 05:42

another thread raised a question about god's omniscience and free will... i've thought through this quite thoroughly as a kid, i want to hear your opinions.

if any of you find this to be too vague or dont know where im getting at, dont answer

Twitch_67 · #2 2006-10-27, 06:01

If god knows everything, then there is no such thing as freewill; this, however, does not stop believers in an omniscient god from believing the exact opposite.

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SmokingSalmon · #3 2006-10-27, 06:08

well... not neccessarily, knowing is not controlling... if i know that my brother would prefer to eat an orange than an apple, and it turns out that he chooses an orange rather than an apple, have i removed his free will?

and this thread isnt limited to only god... you can view it as determinism vs freewill

Twitch_67 · #4 2006-10-27, 06:37

He doesn't know you would prefer, he knows you will. If he knows every possible action you can take and the action you do take before you take before you take it, then you have no free will. If god knows everything, past, future, and present, then he knows our actions long before we do them.

The Bible actually agrees with this, believe it or not. The Bible makes it clear that everything we do, good or evil, is all due to the will of God (2 Thess. 2:11-12; Rom. 9:19-21; Rom. 9:18).

If people are evil, it is because God has chosen for them to be evil (Rom. 1:24-28) and caused them to disobey him (Rom. 11:32). If they do not understand God's message, it is because he has made them dull (Rom. 11:8) and caused them to be stubborn (Rom. 9:18). God prevents the gospels from being preached in certain areas (Act, 16:6-7) and he fixes long before it will happen a person will be born and when he or she will die (Act, 17:26). Those who were going to be saved were chosen by God before the beginning of time (II Tim. 1:9). If a person has faith and is thereby saved, his faith comes from God, and is not from any effort or decision on his part (Eph. 2:9-10). Now one may ask 'If we can only do what God predetermines us to do, how can he hold us responsible for our actions?' The Bible has an answer to this question.

But one of you will say to me: 'If this is so, how can God find fault with anyone? For who can resit God's will?' But who are you, my friend, to answer God back? A clay pot does not ask the man who made it: 'Why did you make me like this?' After all, the man who makes the pot has the right to use the clay as he wishes, and to make two pots from one lump of clay, one for special occasions and one for ordinary use. And the same is true of what God has done. (Rom. 9:19-22)

So as you can see, this makes nonsense of trying to avoid evil and shows God to be a complete bastard who creates men to suffer and murder and burn in hell for eternity.

Real.PUA · #5 2006-10-27, 07:38

^^Ditto. If god knows what you will DO ahead of time, then there is no free will. You action is already known before you do it and thus you have no choice. If god is omnicient then he must know what you will DO ahead of time. Thus, no free will.

Determinism and free will also exclude each other.

UnknownVeritas · #6 2006-10-27, 07:59

Many would argue that God's knowledge does not necessarily negate free-will.

For example:

I am confronted with a choice. Option A; or Option B. I can only choose one.

God knows that I will ultimately choose Option A. Option B is effectively non-existent. However, does this necessarily mean that I was never truly free to choose B?

On the one hand, God knew full well that I would choose A. However, for whatever reason, I also came to the conclusion that Option A was my best course of action. Since my decision was in no way tainted by any form of Godly knowledge, I was free to come to whichever conclusion I felt was best.

There are two possible outcomes that I can think of at this moment.

1. God is responsible, directly or indirectly, for every choice that we make. Either he made me choose A, or he intricately shaped all external influences in my life which ultimately led to my decision to go with A. In which case, free-will is essentially non-existent.

2. God is aware of my decision, yet played no active role in forming that outcome. In this case, free-will and omniscience can possibly coexist. However, how could God have played no role? In the commonly accepted Judeo-Christian view of God (which is what we're discussing, I'd imagine) God is responsible for anything and everything.

So, I suppose that free-will cannot really exist along with omniscience unless there is absolutely no interference on God's part, other than that of an observer. Afterall, coming to the same conclusion that God had foreseen doesn't change the fact that I alone would have come to that conclusion.

Yeah... rambling out loud here.

Twitch_67 · #7 2006-10-27, 08:12

God already knew far before you made that decision, and he already knew which decision you were going to make. It's set in stone, dude. If God knows all, then you have no free will.

SmokingSalmon · #8 2006-10-27, 08:18

once again i'd like to say this discussion is not bound only to god, but determinism or any type of pre-destination.

im agnostic, just playing with this idea - assuming god exists and he is omniscient, in his infinite mind he has seen time in its entirety an infinite number of times within an infinitely small timeframe such that any merit to our existence is a joke.

that pretty much kills free will.

but suppose god DOES love us and he decides to let us choose our path, what can he possibly impliment which allows us free will? cmon, im sure the christians around here has something to say.

UnknownVeritas · #9 2006-10-27, 08:50

Twitch:

I'm just toying with some ideas.

If God could truly play the role of an observer, and that role alone, then how does that ultimately effect your choices in life? He may be aware of the outcome, but if he truly has absolutely no influence on your decision, then the decision is entirely up to you.

Making a choice that coincides with God's awareness does not necessarily destroy your ability to choose freely. That is only the case if he has somehow altered the outcome to conform to his will.

This probably conflicts with statements I've made in other discussions. I'm just trying to take a look at a different perspective here.

Real.PUA · #10 2006-10-27, 09:57

If I went insane and thought I could fly like a bird, yet chose not to actually fly, would I be exercising my free will by not flying? No. Flying is not an option even if I believe it is. I simply cannot choose to fly, thus my will in contrained.

So if god already knows what I will do then I cannot do otherwise. I have no choice. Just like how flying is not a choice even if I believe it is.