A Good Christian Argument.

Lotsagrapes · #1 2007-06-01, 01:13

First, I would like to say that I am an Atheist.

I was talking to a Christian today, and he said something to someone about God giving people a free will.
So I asked him, "Does God have a plan for everything?". And he answered "Yes". So I asked him how God gave people a free will if he controls the future. And his response was: "How would god know you were a good person if you only do what you're told?" (compared to doing the thing you know is right.

I thought this was a great reply, and would like to see if anyone had a good reply for what he said.

Please no flaming, and i am not a strong atheist, just like talking about things like this, and his reply made me interested.

-Lotsagrapes

chumpion · #2 2007-06-01, 05:00

I guess you could come back with "so god doesn't plan everything then", at which point you would start going round and round in circles.

Rust · #3 2007-06-01, 05:21

Exactly. He just went around in a circle. If he has a plan for everybody (i.e. meaning that their future, or at least parts of it, is predetermined) then according to him God wouldn't be able to know if those people were being good or bad in doing what they were told (i.e. acting the way God planned).

Lotsagrapes · #4 2007-06-01, 05:44

Ohh... So your just comparing that to the first thing i said. Thanks, I'll see what he says to that.

Thanks. I didnt expect real answers, more like... theists flaming me.

KikoSanchez · #5 2007-06-01, 06:17

The guy managed to contradict himself twice in 3 statements, he's batting 100% illogical.

ArgonPlasma2000 · #6 2007-06-01, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rust

Exactly. He just went around in a circle. If he has a plan for everybody (i.e. meaning that their future, or at least parts of it, is predetermined) then according to him God wouldn't be able to know if those people were being good or bad in doing what they were told (i.e. acting the way God planned).

He left off some of it. When people say "He has a plan", its refered to as your full potential. You can still choose to say "FU, God" and go about your business never following the plan at all.

I'm not understanding exactly what you or the OP mean by "doing what you are told" and the logical fallacy in claiming moral ambiguity.

If you are simply doing what you are told by other people, you are most likely not following the "plan" at all. Its really easy for you to miss a simple causal detail following the general path that deviates from the "plan". If, however, you were doing what you were told from the Bible, there exists not moral ambiguity as far as the Christian God is concerned as to whether you are doing right or wrong as long as you are truely following it and consequentially the "plan".

---Beany--- · #7 2007-06-01, 18:07

Maybe gods plan is your plan. Maybe gods plan is the accumulation of every conscious entities choices.

KikoSanchez · #8 2007-06-01, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArgonPlasma2000

He left off some of it. When people say "He has a plan", its refered to as your full potential. You can still choose to say "FU, God" and go about your business never following the plan at all.

No, there is no choice, it is only an illusion if god has predetermined everything. We're not talking churchy "GOD HAS A PLAN FOR YOU" brainwashing techniques, we're talking about god being all-knowing and having determined everything in the universe ahead of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArgonPlasma2000

If you are simply doing what you are told by other people, you are most likely not following the "plan" at all. Its really easy for you to miss a simple causal detail following the general path that deviates from the "plan". If, however, you were doing what you were told from the Bible, there exists not moral ambiguity as far as the Christian God is concerned as to whether you are doing right or wrong as long as you are truely following it and consequentially the "plan".

Again, it's not about any illusory 'plan', the 'plan' is what you are doing, no matter what you are doing - it's just a tautology that you are following the plan. (given that one actually exists - ie the christian god exists as said by its followers)

i poop in your cerial · #9 2007-06-01, 21:12

If god created man, he created man.
Which must mean, that god created both good and evil men.

God are sending the evil people to hell, to suffer for all eternity.
God are sending the good people to heaven, the best place in the universe.

Someone, please, explain why the fuck he created some men to be evil, and then when they died, tortured them for eternity. That seems kinda... Sadistic.

KikoSanchez · #10 2007-06-01, 21:17

Believers can easily refute that with the argument of free will. The problem is that most of these people ALSO hold the belief that god is all-knowing, all-powerful and therefore knows what you will do in the future, thus contradicting their belief in free will. Unfortunately, most don't understand this and even fewer are willing to give up the 2nd belief.