The question of good?

Rolloffle · #1 2007-08-23, 01:13

Atheists commonly use the "question of evil" to suggest that God is not real.

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

How can atheists explain good though? Where do moral absolutes come from?

What makes murder wrong?

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

DarkMe · #2 2007-08-23, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolloffle

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

God is a omnipotent all powerful being, he can prevent sin and evil in such a way as not to violate free will.

The idea of a Christian god is simply illogical.

Quote:

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

Who said we didn't? Sure, we don't do it nowadays but thats mostly because it would lead to anarchy.

Hell, the bible even supports this, if "murder is bad" is an inborn trait then why would you need to tell people it's wrong?

As for your last example, you will be punished, you will be thrown out of the tribe/group and probably die. It's really fucking hard to live alone in the wild even for modern humans, how do you think a caveman would fare? You need other people, thus you are nice to them, viola!, morality evolves.

DarkMage35 · #3 2007-08-23, 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMe

Who said we didn't? Sure, we don't do it nowadays but thats mostly because it would lead to chaos.

There. Fixed that for you. Anarchy != chaos.

MRman · #4 2007-08-23, 10:13

its true that if someone killed and whatnot they could get ahead but as the guy above me said, they would probably be kicked out of the tribe or even killed, and of course it doesnt mean that everyone did killed everone else, and thats a mental thing, not genetic so it cant be counted in natural selection.

Rolloffle · #5 2007-08-23, 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRman

its true that if someone killed and whatnot they could get ahead but as the guy above me said, they would probably be kicked out of the tribe or even killed, and of course it doesnt mean that everyone did killed everone else, and thats a mental thing, not genetic so it cant be counted in natural selection.

I agree, morality can't be explained through natural selection, but in that case why does morality exist?

Could it be that God has created us with certain moral values?

DarkMe · #6 2007-08-23, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolloffle

Could it be that God has created us with certain moral values?

If we were created with morals then why would we need to be told murder is wrong?

Rolloffle · #7 2007-08-23, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMe

If we were created with morals then why would we need to be told murder is wrong?

That's my point, most people don't need to be told that murder is wrong.

DarkMe · #8 2007-08-23, 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolloffle

That's my point, most people don't need to be told that murder is wrong.

The Bible. Specifically, the ten commandments.

Rolloffle · #9 2007-08-23, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMe

The Bible. Specifically, the ten commandments.

...and yet people who've never heard of the bible aren't all homicidal maniacs.

People have a conscience and a certain level of basic morality (although they can of course suppress this and do evil if they really want to) which evolution cannot explain.

DarkMage35 · #10 2007-08-23, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolloffle

...and yet people who've never heard of the bible aren't all homicidal maniacs.

People have a conscience and a certain level of basic morality (although they can of course suppress this and do evil if they really want to) which evolution cannot explain.

Morality is only one way to explain such things. For the record, I dont believe in absolute morality.

Perhaps its a person's unconscious self connecting killing a like with the possibility of themselves being killed?

Perhaps (pre-current-society) some person came to the conclusion that they would be able to accomplish a lot more if they werent fearing for their lives, and so would other people. They then explained this to their friends, and collectively explained it to their enemies, and came to a truce?

Perhaps (pre-current-society) some person acquired power over others through fear and eventually stopped unnecessary killing that way? Actually, If I remember my history right, this is what happened - it led to kings and/or lords.