Why atheists are so pushy...

[Kazz]

I wrote this as a reply to a thread by rollofle that was just closed. Although yes, it was closed... I think my response makes a worthy thread of it's own.

Edit: Thanks Jack. There is hope for political efficacy at totse.com! :P

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I am godless.

And as much as I consider myself a very tolerant and reasonable human being... I find myself pushing atheist values on others (at least judging others) quite often, and as much as it might be politically incorrect to say this, I find it perfectly justified. I know to religious people, and even unrelgious people this often comes across as ugly and arrogant... but out of nothing but true self honestly, I do think that this atheist pushiness is in fact justified. Bare with me, I'm going to attempt to explain.

You said it yourself. I believe that when I die, I'm going to turn into the same exact dust that you, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus all turn into. The difference is that a religious person, has something BEYOND life. To the religious person, this world is just a precursor to an even better "life eternal." However what you need to understand, is that to atheists, this is the ONE shot we've got. THIS is my world, my one chance at getting things right and making the most out of my short time in this universe. With that said, I want to live my life the way I desire. I want to be the best person I can be in my time here, and I don't want to be held back and anchored by somebody else's ( or a two thousand year old book's) moral code.

Before I start, I need to clear this up. When I attack religion, I am not pushing "atheism". Atheism is not something one can "call to arms" for... it's not something that one waves a flag for at all. When I say I'm an atheist, all I'm doing is saying that I lack a belief in a higher being. Atheism is not a belief structure, it is a LACK of just that. IT is not something that unites me with fellow atheists... and its ridiculous to push and fight for atheism itself. However what I do push, and what is worth fighting for, and what does unite me with other atheists, is my desire for a secular environment I can live my life in freely, and humanist values that I would gladly fight and die for. I'm not pushing atheism... I'm pushing humanism. I'm pushing personal freedom. Tying back into the above paragraph... knowing this is my ONE shot in this world, I believe that it's perfectly acceptable to assume and fight for my right to live in a free and secular environment, where somebody else's beliefs aren't pushed onto me.

The sad truth, is that for thousands of years now, somebody else's beliefs HAVE been pushed onto the human race, human societies, humanity's moral systems, laws, government, etc. This I am not okay with. In America the biggest threat to my freedom, the freedom of my human spirit, is Christianity. I am avidly against the Christian moral code, a bloodthirsty blend of stoicism and weakness that dictates the way I must live my life. Fuck the meek. Fuck the fact that a church, no different than any other establishment, somehow has the ability to be tax exempt. Fuck the fact that a drug user can avoid jail time by serving his sentence in a Christian Rehab clinic... and not have the choice to serve in a secular rehab center. Fuck the way Christianity weaves itself into our laws... from the banning of homosexual civil unions to abortions (even though I am personally against the latter.) Fuck the fact that kids everywhere are scumming up their sex lives, not understanding the importance of using a condom because our educators (and whoever else) only preach abstinence, and no safe alternative. Fuck the joke of intelligent design, and the anchor religion has become on the world's education and learning. Fuck the fact that in ten years, we could grow organs on a farm... yet millions will die because of some "other worldly" condemnation of stem cell research. This is probly the biggest one for me personally... the best argument for "pushy atheism." 30 years from now if I need a new kidney, do you know how crushed I would feel if one were not available? The way these heavy morals effect all of our lives are not just interfering with the pursuit of happiness, they could easily mean the death of millions! (Not to mention religion's track record of billions of deaths by war and holocaust in the name of God).

Not only do we suffer and feel weighed down by religion's effects on law and state, but society as well has been so trained into religion that all government aside, we still cannot escape. I've lost friends because of my atheism. People are kicked out of neighborhoods because of atheism. I'm not some human degenerate, I'm simply a human being that values LIFE. Hell, there are even atheists that are by many means, Christian.

It's not that I'm pushing atheism at all, rather I am fighting for humanist values. I'm fighting for a true separation of church and state, a true separation from church and MY life. Unfortunately for the atheist in the modern world, this is virtually impossible. Religion is a large part of all our lives, whether we realize it or not, and like it or not. I don't like it... and frankly it sickens me. I feel helpless and chained down by it... and it's not that I'm pushing atheism per se, but rather pushing for my freedom... or rather my children's (no hope in my lifetime) freedom from religion, thousand year old morals, judgment, etc in their lives. I think religion is a very ugly thing... at least the religion I have been exposed to. I know the church has done good things, beautiful things, etc... but even these intentions can be argued, and I'll save that for another post. (Even these good things to me are plagued down by the denial of life and humanity.)

You say you understand the pushing of Christianity because it "saves"... but for somebody that doesn't believe that it DOES save, why the hell would I want to hear it? And I can't remember the last time a Christian tried to "save" me from my atheism... although I do have a very vivid memory of being told that I will in fact burn in hell for eternity.
Is that how they're supposed to save me? Telling me I'm going to roast? Heh.

I'm sorry if you take this as a rant instead of an explanation. If you have any more questions, I'll try to explain better. Just ask... I won't be offended.

I don't care what people believe in.
I'll admit, that I can't help but pass judgment when somebody does tell me they believe in 2000 year old completely ungrounded stories with no evidence what so ever. However the faith itself is not the crime. The crime is when that faith corrupts people around it, be it children or those under the crossfire. The crime is religion, not faith.

I just want to live my one life on this world, a world many religions don't seem to value a whole lot, freely and without somebody else's ancient set of rules and prejudices. If this means pointing out inconsistencies, flaws, hypocrisy, etc...

Then I will fight and push for what I value.

[socratic]

Athiests are pushy in response to religious prosletyzing.

You tell me I'm going to hell and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

[Thunderhammer]

Originally Posted by Kazz

Is that how they're supposed to save me? Telling me I'm going to roast? Heh.

I'm sorry if you take this as a rant instead of an explanation. If you have any more questions, I'll try to explain better. Just ask... I won't be offended. I don't care what people believe in.

okay.

I don't care what you believe in either.

[DarkMage35]

Originally Posted by Kazz

Then I will fight and push for what I value.

To quote a most awesome video game:

"I will walk my own path... If you try to stop me... I'll kill you!"

[jackketch]

bump + 5 char

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by socratic

Athiests are pushy in response to religious prosletyzing.

You tell me I'm going to hell and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

This pretty much sums it up.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by Kazz

and I don't want to be held back and anchored by somebody else's ( or a two thousand year old book's) moral code.
.

Can you give me an example of how you feel a part of the biblical moral code would hold you back?

[Kazz]

Originally Posted by Thunderhammer

okay.

I don't care what you believe in either.

Okay, but see this is the central difference between religious pushiness and atheistic pushiness. I don't care what you believe in, and it doesn't harm you, hurt you, hold you back, or effect you in any way what so ever. You (only assuming you are religious) don't care what I believe in, but I suffer from it every day.

If atheists made the rules... if humans separated from any higher belief structure made the laws and moral system of our world and focused it on solely humanity... then you would be free to believe whatever you want so long as you don't hurt anybody else. You could choose not to participate in stem cell research by not receiving an organ that comes from a stem cell. Your religious domination could choose not to marry homosexuals under the name of a (your religion's) marriage ceremony. You could not get an abortion, but leave it open for people that might really really need it.

You not caring, and me not caring, have very different consequences.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Kazz

Okay, but see this is the central difference between religious pushiness and atheistic pushiness. I don't care what you believe in, and it doesn't harm you, hurt you, hold you back, or effect you in any way what so ever. You (only assuming you are religious) don't care what I believe in, but I suffer from it every day.

If atheists made the rules... if humans separated from any higher belief structure made the laws and moral system of our world and focused it on solely humanity... then you would be free to believe whatever you want so long as you don't hurt anybody else. You could choose not to participate in stem cell research by not receiving an organ that comes from a stem cell. Your religious domination could choose not to marry homosexuals under the name of a (your religion's) marriage ceremony. You could not get an abortion, but leave it open for people that might really really need it.

You not caring, and me not caring, have very different consequences.

That would not work. It would end Christianity and they know it. Many christians would be like FUCK GOD give me a liver. They would also wanna watch secular television like porn. If christain doctrine said christians should NOT stick their noses in where it is unwanted THE RELIGION ITSELF WOULD DISAPEAR AND THEY KNOW IT.

[TeenMachine]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

That would not work. It would end Christianity and they know it. Many christians would be like FUCK GOD give me a liver. They would also wanna watch secular television like porn. If christain doctrine said christians should NOT stick their noses in where it is unwanted THE RELIGION ITSELF WOULD DISAPEAR AND THEY KNOW IT.

That wouldn't be a bad thing IMO, lol.