Proof of the supernatural?

[ACE_187]

I'm talking about existance. Of course the bible has thousands of contradictions, but atheism has one MAJOR one, that cant be overlooked, and pretty much makes it false. The whole chicken/egg thing about existance. I'm not talking about the universe, but actual existance. The time/space that would have had to existed in the first place for the big bang to happen. Atheist dont believe in god because they say nothing could be here forever. But existance had to always be here forever, either that, or once there was nothing. Nothing also cant exist, not according to science, and no im not talking about black space, I'm talking about NOTHING!!!! The same nothing that just created time and space out of nowhere. According to your own beliefs it cant exist, much less you be able to show that it can exist (just like you ask people to show that god exists).

There is no answer to it. The only thing, is either there is some other dimension, or we're living in a matrix or something. And wether it's an electronic matrix like in the movie or not is debatable, but "reality" isn't really real. If every single bit of life in the universe was destroyed, would we have ever really been here? If there is another dimension we cant physically get to, do they really exist? Another possibility is Einstiens time travel idea, and that time doesn't really exist. The only reality is what happens after we're gone, because eventually there wont be life in this universe. And if there is no other dimension, after we're all gone, who's to say we ever existed? This still isn't proof that I go on, or that I can still think after I am dead. I hope I'll be able to, and be with the people that I love on earth, or just live in my own reality. But if I have lived previous lives, if I cant remember them, are they real? If I live another life after this, and cant remember this one, I might as well be gone all together. I kind of think I will go on to some other reality.

Why cant atheists acknowledge that since their beliefs are based on science, that it's crazy for them to say that something natural is eternal (universe or existance) but something religious people (believe not of this dimension) can be eternal? Or them believing that nothing ever existed. Is the universe like grand theft auto? If I go out far enough does an invisible wall just turn me around? And if that is so, what are we just floating around in? What's outside of our universe, and whats outside of that, and so on? Space obviously, but it has to end, or not, and either contradicts your own laws. So we have to be in a matrix of some kind, and our conciousness somewhere else, right?

[Scraff]

Originally Posted by ACE_187

I'm talking about existance. Of course the bible has thousands of contradictions, but atheism has one MAJOR one, that cant be overlooked, and pretty much makes it false. The whole chicken/egg thing about existance. I'm not talking about the universe, but actual existance. The time/space that would have had to existed in the first place for the big bang to happen.

If you really want to learn about what cosmologists have to say about the Big Bang and the necessity for God/gods, I'll make some book recommendations. Hint: None of the scientific theories require a creator.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

Atheist dont believe in god because they say nothing could be here forever.

I haven't met one atheist yet who doesn't have belief in God/gods for that reason and I doubt you do either. Nice try though.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

But existance had to always be here forever, either that, or once there was nothing.

Wrong. Tell me if you want those book recommendations.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

Nothing also cant exist, not according to science,

Wrong again. I'd like you to show me what scientific law says that.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

and no im not talking about black space, I'm talking about NOTHING!!!!

Where are you getting the idea that a "black space", a complete vacuum devoid of any material, is defined as 'something'? Sorry, that would be NOTHING!!!!

Originally Posted by ACE_187

The same nothing that just created time and space out of nowhere. According to your own beliefs it cant exist, much less you be able to show that it can exist (just like you ask people to show that god exists).

Oh, really? Maybe you should check this out.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

So we have to be in a matrix of some kind, and our conciousness somewhere else, right?

Wrong. That is not how it has to be.

[ACE_187]

It's not that complicated, so theres no need for reading a whole book on it. If you believe that NOTHING once was here, no space, no atoms, no anything, then you have to believe the elements necessary for the big bang to happen, just appeared out of nowhere. How is that different from christians believing a ghost pulled the universe out of his hat?

I am about to start reading books on quantum physics. Just because it seems like a way or atleast a reason for things being the way they are. The big bang only explains how the universe came about. If the universe is expanding, space has to be beyond the universe, so does it go on forever? And again, if it doesnt, that means NOTHING exists outside of it. It's just insane anyway you think of it. Thats why I am starting to believe it's not real anyway. Im going to buy some books on the multiple world/ multiple mind theories. Again, not necessarily the truth, but it will atleast attempt to explain things that are un-explainable so far, and offer up theories. Who's to say you aren't your own god? Who's to tell you that I really exist or vice versa? The truth is alot deeper than science no matter what. Wether you were created by a thinking being, or you are actually some type of god yourself, and when you die, you will control whatever reality you want with your own mind. I dont follow religion, because if there is a god, it's equally insane for us to even believe the true religion has been found, and if it has, if it was that important for us to follow, god would have given us all some kind of proof. Much like I see this contradiction as a proof that something exists, or nothing exists, and if this is all fake. This is alot of what I think about, it gets to the point of bothering me. I've heard of people commiting suicide thinking about it. But I will buy some books on quantum mechanics.

EDIT: I appreciate your concern, but I've never been really interested in the big bang. I know for the most part how it happened, but it still doesn't answer my question. Obviously the universe was created by something, and the big bang is just as probable as anything else, but that doesn't get me anywhere. It's hard for me to believe that any concious being has always been here, but it's equally, in fact more so hard to believe that there is no place that we cant get to physically (or many places) from this dimension. Just like if that exists, if they cant get to us, we really dont exist to them, because it's not an actual place, not to us anyway.

[Kazz]

Sweet Jesus. So... much... ignorance.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

I'm talking about existance. Of course the bible has thousands of contradictions, but atheism has one MAJOR one, that cant be overlooked,

Very true, this is why I say I put "faith" in atheism.

and pretty much makes it false.

Oh really? That was a rather simple approach to this MAJOR one contradiction.

The whole chicken/egg thing about existance. I'm not talking about the universe, but actual existance. The time/space that would have had to existed in the first place for the big bang to happen.

Right, the chicken and the egg analogy. Of course what your not catching... is that God or not, there is the very same problem. One can say that it's impossible for existence to pop out of nowhere, or be here forever... and our minds make that easy to say. But can this not be directly applied to some god as well? That it's impossible for him to pop out of nowhere, or be here forever?

Atheist dont believe in god because they say nothing could be here forever.

You know some pretty retarded atheists then. Some very contradicting atheists, who don't seem to think a whole lot about their atheism at all. That, or you don't know any atheists, and you're merely making this horrible, horrible assumption.

But existance had to always be here forever, either that, or once there was nothing. Nothing also cant exist, not according to science, and no im not talking about black space, I'm talking about NOTHING!!!! The same nothing that just created time and space out of nowhere. According to your own beliefs it cant exist, much less you be able to show that it can exist (just like you ask people to show that god exists).

We cannot humanly comprehend nothing. But that is not to say that it cannot exist. Same goes for something always existing... we have enough of a hard time trying to put a finger on "infinite"... that none of us can really comprehend infinite backwards. I believe this has to do with not being able to to comprehend true negatives... for example... don't think of a pink elephant. Guess what you just did?

There is no answer to it.

Jesus. Another big jump for you big guy. I'm glad that other humans over the last two thousand years have not been so easy to give up and kill hope so fast.

The only thing, is either there is some other dimension, or we're living in a matrix or something. And wether it's an electronic matrix like in the movie or not is debatable, but "reality" isn't really real. If every single bit of life in the universe was destroyed, would we have ever really been here? If there is another dimension we cant physically get to, do they really exist?

o_O

You're an idiot.

Another possibility is Einstiens time travel idea, and that time doesn't really exist. The only reality is what happens after we're gone, because eventually there wont be life in this universe. And if there is no other dimension, after we're all gone, who's to say we ever existed?

You shifted from the universe existing, to life existing. Big jump. Although you never really made a point anyways... so I guess it's pretty neutral.

This still isn't proof that I go on, or that I can still think after I am dead. I hope I'll be able to, and be with the people that I love on earth, or just live in my own reality.

Yeah... that sounds really really nice. But that doesn't make it any more true.

But if I have lived previous lives, if I cant remember them, are they real? If I live another life after this, and cant remember this one, I might as well be gone all together. I kind of think I will go on to some other reality.

Whose to say you lived previous lives? Where the fuck is this notion of a soul coming from, that passes from life to life? Or from life, to some other reality? What the hell is this other reality? A heaven? Where the hell did that come from? Somehow you've come to a loss at explaining existence, and then jumped to a completely dumbfounded set of ideas and events that hold no truth in this universe or reality.

Why cant atheists acknowledge that since their beliefs are based on science,

My beliefs are not based on science. Or at least, my lack of a god isn't. I'm not waving the holy "atheist flag".... I simply cannot believe in a god because it's just as likely that the floating tea pot, the pink unicorn, and the flying spaghetti monster all exist. If you try to develop an unbiased world view... a 'point of view'-less point of view... then you see there is absolutely no reason to believe in a God at all. This is why I lack belief in a god.

that it's crazy for them to say that something natural is eternal (universe or existance) but something religious people (believe not of this dimension) can be eternal?

The universe IS eternal. We are just, at this point, unable to comprehend that. The same flaw comes when saying God is eternal... even if he is part of "another dimension", the phenomena as Kant would put it, you still reach the problem "well who made God". It's inescapable, even with religion. Going back to your completely silly matrix possibility... who made the machines?

Or them believing that nothing ever existed. Is the universe like grand theft auto? If I go out far enough does an invisible wall just turn me around? And if that is so, what are we just floating around in? What's outside of our universe, and whats outside of that, and so on? Space obviously, but it has to end, or not, and either contradicts your own laws. So we have to be in a matrix of some kind, and our conciousness somewhere else, right?

Nobody knows the answers to those questions. But to jump that because of our ignorance, we are in some matrix is quite frankly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[Scraff]

Originally Posted by ACE_187

It's not that complicated, so theres no need for reading a whole book on it.

Yeah, those books about the Big Bang and how it all started are for dummies. You know it all already.

You've already shown that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to cosmology.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

If you believe that NOTHING once was here, no space, no atoms, no anything, then you have to believe the elements necessary for the big bang to happen, just appeared out of nowhere. How is that different from christians believing a ghost pulled the universe out of his hat?

Did you read from the link I provided? It's different because the evidence for the Big Bang can literally fill libraries.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

If the universe is expanding, space has to be beyond the universe, so does it go on forever?

I thought you said it wasn't that complicated? Again, I can recommend books if you're interested. Or you can start by looking at this for an answer to your question.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

And again, if it doesnt, that means NOTHING exists outside of it. It's just insane anyway you think of it.

Yes, it is. Just because something is very difficult to understand doesn't mean it's not happening that way or gods are in control.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

Thats why I am starting to believe it's not real anyway. Im going to buy some books on the multiple world/ multiple mind theories.

Yeah, that seems a saner way to go.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

Again, not necessarily the truth, but it will atleast attempt to explain things that are un-explainable so far, and offer up theories.

No different than people making up gods. It's the lazy way out. One can't understand how the universe began so simply believing in a god who claims it's beyong human understanding and He creates by willing things in to existence is ananswer, so they stick with it. It makes some people happier to have an answer, but to each his own.

I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things; by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me.

Richard Feynman

Originally Posted by ACE_187

Obviously the universe was created by something, and the big bang is just as probable as anything else

No, it's not as probable as anything else. It's much more probable as there are tons of evidence for it.

Originally Posted by ACE_187

but that doesn't get me anywhere. It's hard for me to believe that any concious being has always been here, but it's equally, in fact more so hard to believe that there is no place that we cant get to physically (or many places) from this dimension. Just like if that exists, if they cant get to us, we really dont exist to them, because it's not an actual place, not to us anyway.

WoW! Alrighty then.

[ryanthekiller]

psssssst...

just so all of you know

the big bang is not a beginning of time theory, it is merely a model used to explain the current arrangement of planets/solar systems/galaxies. And dont try to tell me I'm wrong, I know what I'm talking about on this one.

[Obbe]

Hells yeah, ripping apart the ignorant is fun y'all!

[Kazz]

Originally Posted by ryanthekiller

psssssst...

just so all of you know

the big bang is not a beginning of time theory, it is merely a model used to explain the current arrangement of planets/solar systems/galaxies. And dont try to tell me I'm wrong, I know what I'm talking about on this one.

Very true. For the big bang to occur, time/existence/even matter had to previously exist.

Do you know a lot about this subject?

If so, please do share more. I would like to hear your thoughts.

[ryanthekiller]

I don't really have the time to write too much on the subject, but if you're interested in it I know of two VERY good books about cosmology. The Big Bang by Simon Singh is a very good book which covers the history of the big bang theory very well. The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene is a great book about modern cosmological theories as well. Neither of them take much previous knowledge of the subject to understand fully, as they are both written for the general public.

Other books of interest:
A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking
The Universe in a Nutshell by Stephen Hawking
The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene
The Universe and Multiple Reality by M.R. Frank

[ACE_187]

Thanks. Thats what Im trying to say. The big bang doesn't explain existance, or time. Thanks for the suggestions. Something interesting, I was reading this book, and found this quote that had nothing that I could see to do with the subject of the book, and it applied to this, and it is basically what I was trying to say.

"For if only a single substance exists, then either I must be this substance, and consequently I am God (but this contradicts my dependency) or else I am an accident." -Immanuel Kant.

I looked him up, and he was into metaphysics a long time ago. Something else, that is funny to think about, is that once we are all dead, and wether we are concious or not, if we aren't in this dimension, did this dimension ever exist? It's like a tree falling in the woods with nobody around to hear it.

So basically, something exists beyond our "reality" right? It seems that it has to, to me atleast. If it didn't, and there wern't a different dimension in wich our laws didn't apply, then nothing makes sense. Time just cant really exist. And again, it wouldn't prove that I have a soul, but then the question comes, that if I dont have a soul, then why? I want to live on, but I geuss if I dont, it will be the same as before I was born, and that isn't depressing. But I still want to be with people I love for eternity.

There is a book I'm going to order about the brain, and electric waves or something, and how your "mind" is immortal, and is sub-atomic like radio waves.