Determinism & Materialism

[quasicurus]

The whole determinism argument is based on the ground of materialism. Some people thus reason that supposing that materialism is incorrect, then determinism falls apart. Lots of religious people believe that we have souls (non-physical part of us), therefore we must have free will!

NOTE: I don't want to have people here saying things like "There's no such thing as a soul. Everything's physical!" I am only interested in knowing whether causal determinism can still be exist, even if we live in a non-physical world.

[KikoSanchez]

Could determinism still be true even if immaterial entities acted upon the material world? Sure, it is possible, but for us we would never know, b/c we can never know the immaterial forces. Therefore, it would appear to us that indeterminism is occurring, or that we are simply not seeing the steps from A-->B in the material deterministic chain.

[ArmsMerchant]

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

Materialism, however, is a superstition.

[Lord. Better Than You]

In religious idealism , humans have "free will".

But idealism in a broader sense means "ideas are more real than matter".

This does not necessarily imply free will. Under an Idealist Materialist model of existence, the exchange of IDEAS would affect the minds.

The distortion of the ideas would be systematic in the mind, and they would be exchanged.

Also, the supernatural may be deterministic.

[FreedomHippie]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

Materialism, however, is a superstition.

This is very true, the saying goes you reap what you sow. If you decide that a deterministic world is what you live in than that becomes your reality.

To follow up on something that Lord. Better Than You had said, this is what the OP said...

Originally Posted by quasicurus

Lots of religious people believe that we have souls (non-physical part of us), therefore we must have free will!

I'm not even sure if any religion says that by having a soul you have free will, but if there is please correct me. Having a soul doesn't necessarily mean that you have free will.

I'm no expert in psychology, and forgive me if you consider it a "pseudoscience", but the subconscious is basically what controls your physical actions. The subconscious is supposed to be working outside of normal consciousness, so doesn't that denote a soul of some sort?

[ArmsMerchant]

Some Protestatnt denominations-- old-time Presbyterians, for one--were big on predestination. Today all the more highly evolved denominations go with free will.

And your subconscious is not related to your essential self, or soul. A lot of actions that people take without conscious thought are the result of programming that resides at the subconscious level.

[FreedomHippie]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

And your subconscious is not related to your essential self, or soul. A lot of actions that people take without conscious thought are the result of programming that resides at the subconscious level.

Yea that was what I was kind of getting at, even if there is a soul your subconscious still makes lots of your decisions for you without you even being aware of it through its programming, although you can reprogram your subconscious.

The soul is a completly seperate entity from the subconscious level than?

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by FreedomHippie

The soul is a completly seperate entity from the subconscious level than?

Well, you know my opinion.

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

...programming that resides at the subconscious level.

Interesting article.

[FreedomHippie]

Originally Posted by Obbe

Well, you know my opinion.

Actually Obbe I'd like to hear your view of the subconscious and how it is or isnt connected to the soul.

Of course try to keep within that though, don't want to have you hijacking another thread