Creation of the soul(?)

[TeenMachine]

Soul as in the spirit and things like that. I'm not really talking about the soul/spirit from any particular religious or other viewpoint. Mainly thinking of the soul/spirit in general like it is a separate thing and not your brain.

When does life actually begin? When the sperm meets the egg? When the fetus has a beating heart? When God(s) decide to create another human being?
Just saying life actually begins when we are born, would the soul be created then as well?Can souls be created/destroyed? Or are they existing beforehand and enter/join the body? Would the soul be released after that?

If life is created,lives and inevitably dies and the soul doesn't, is the soul really alive?
If it can does it break down into smaller particles or mass like other matter?

Is the soul connected to the body, or the body to the soul?both?(If the soul does indeed stay in our physical bodies)

Would a god or god have a soul itself?(speaking as if there is a high being of some sort)

All questions I'm asking to anyone willing to answer and discuss them them.
I realize some of these questions might not have real answers and some varying answers but I want to hear all.

(btw mods, if for some reason this belongs in science of the damned or something, sorry and move please)

[TeenMachine]

My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God (2 Viewing), Lol. *waits for replies*

[Prometheum]

The soul is never created. Souls aren't real.

[AngryFemme]

There's not much traffic here, but expect a lot of very different responses on this! You managed to cover the mind-body problem, the characteristics God might have (if God exists) and extropy, all rolled up into one post.

Here's is what I have come to understand about it:

Originally Posted by TeenMachine

When does life actually begin? When the sperm meets the egg? When the fetus has a beating heart? When God(s) decide to create another human being?

Way I see it, life begins at fertilization. Human-ness begins after maturing for about 20 weeks in the womb. Personhood begins the moment it is born, thus becoming independent of it's mother's tissue. We'll call it Personhood, even though (in my opinion), there is absolutely no reason why a soul (as I'm describing it) couldn't apply to other animals besides us.

Just saying life actually begins when we are born, would the soul be created then as well?

Could you have a soul without ever having a brain? It seems like consciousness would be a requirement for us to think a creature has a soul. Do animals have souls? Surely! Are they self-aware of it? Good question, but we can't very well tap into qualia other than our own, so we'll never really know. Do plants have souls? Seems highly unlikely, to me. A rabid member of ELF might heartily disagree.

I believe that the soul is in a developmental stage, up until the time Personhood begins. It's created, alright - as a by-product of brain activity. I believe it emerges as the mind emerges, a result of incredibly complex processes - neurons firing and connecting with other neurons in the brain.

The end product is this teeming ball of energy confined to the brain that *created* it. It's where our spirit, in the loosest sense of the word, arises. It's where our minds reside. It's what we feel like we're made of. And self-awareness assures us it's unique to us as individuals.

No wonder somebody down the line dreamt up that God assigned souls, one-by-one, into people upon the moment of conception. It just feels extraordinary to contemplate the most intimate thing we can relate to.

If life is created,lives and inevitably dies and the soul doesn't, is the soul really alive? If it can does it break down into smaller particles or mass like other matter?

From my view - If it's created by the brain, lives as long as the brain does and extinguishes when the brain completely dies, it's not any more "alive" than the cadaver it just occupied. Maybe during the exact moment of death, the energy that was present in the brain leaves the body, and doesn't extinguish completely after all. By that, I mean continues to exist long enough to [insert physicist comment about how useless energy is absorbed by surrounding energy]. By that rote, you can say the soul is infinite, and lives on forever. But are "we" connected to it still? I don't believe we are.

Is the soul connected to the body, or the body to the soul?both?

What I like to believe - both! The soul is essentially the energy that the brain produces. If it's completely absent, then we are considered brain-dead, i.e. not alive. In this way, the body requires the soul be present in order for the body to be considered alive. However, the soul depends on the body (brain) to exist before it can become a possibility!

[Surak]

Please define the term "soul" and then provide evidence that it exists.

Note: You can effectively answer this with "Scatman Crothers."

[TeenMachine]

Originally Posted by Prometheum

The soul is never created. Souls aren't real.

If your going to reply with that can you at least put some content in that post? Can you tell me why souls aren't real or why you don't think they are?

I will admit I do not believe in souls or spirits as some religions describe them and I do not believe in any religion known to man but I do not dismiss the fact that it is in fact possible for souls/the spirit or anything like that to exist no matter how stupid it sounds. Unless of course there is somehow rock hard evidence that proves or disproves them or the idea of them.Which I don't think or I don't know if it would be possible for such evidence to exist.

Originally Posted by Surak

Please define the term "soul" and then provide evidence that it exists.

Note: You can effectively answer this with "Scatman Crothers."

I only know what I've read and heard about souls(which isn't much). I have no true definition of souls because I don't know alot about them and haven't really discussed it with anyone.I don't even think there is a true definition of souls or the spirit.
I cannot provide any evidence because well like I said I'm not sure what I think a soul is or could be.(I'm not saying they are real but I am not dismissing the idea or saying they aren't real)

If you have your own evidence that proves souls do or do not exist please post it. Tell me what you think a soul is or could be.

AngryFemme,thanks for the great reply.Your post was pretty interesting even though i think my half asleep brain didn't fully process it.I'm going to read it again tomorrow and think about it more when I am fully awake and no longer fatigued.

[KikoSanchez]

The soul/spirit was originally an idea that was meant to explain the difference between a person who is alive and one who is dead. They realized there was some life force that disappeared at the time of death and figured the body must have lost its spirit. In the discussion since then, many people have equated the idea of soul to that of the mind (not brain) such as Descartes. It seems every conception has one thing in common and that is the soul/spirit/mind is immaterial. Thus, there is no way to speak of it being observed or proven, though nor can it be disproven. It is like stating there is an invisible dragon in my stomach.

Obviously since ancient times, we have disproven the original conception as some life force, we now understand through biology and neurology what really happens at death, so we no longer need mystical explanations.

Imo, what people now consider their 'soul' or 'mind' is nothing more than their conscious experience and personality, both of which are better explained through identity theory and the functioning of the material brain. As science progresses, we can break the bonds of mysticism and realize the real workings of the universe.

[TeenMachine]

Originally Posted by KikoSanchez

The soul/spirit was originally an idea that was meant to explain the difference between a person who is alive and one who is dead. They realized there was some life force that disappeared at the time of death and figured the body must have lost its spirit. In the discussion since then, many people have equated the idea of soul to that of the mind (not brain) such as Descartes. It seems every conception has one thing in common and that is the soul/spirit/mind is immaterial. Thus, there is no way to speak of it being observed or proven, though nor can it be disproven. It is like stating there is an invisible dragon in my stomach.

Obviously since ancient times, we have disproven the original conception as some life force, we now understand through biology and neurology what really happens at death, so we no longer need mystical explanations.

First, very nice post and thanks for posting.


Can you be more specific on who "they" is? Or do you just mean ancient civilizations in general?

I think if there is a spirit or soul in the religious view, well just in any perspective, such as your soul/spirit goes to heaven or an afterlife or possesses another physical body or anything like that and the soul is a creation of a Higher being(or is another form of matter created when the universe was created) then it would not be the same as other matter we know and have observed. I don't think it could be. If the soul was infinite(or a higher being made it inf.) then it would have to be made of something we have not observed or could possibly observe(at least with what we have to observe with) or conceive. If that were true than our current scientific instruments and natural senses are pretty much useless in detecting/observing such a thing.

Imo, what people now consider their 'soul' or 'mind' is nothing more than their conscious experience and personality, both of which are better explained through identity theory and the functioning of the material brain. As science progresses, we can break the bonds of mysticism and realize the real workings of the universe.

If people define or consider their personality and/or experience their soul or spirit than I agree with you that it could be better or sophisticatedly explained with present day science.
But the Identity theory is still just a theory and isn't a law of science.
and before anyone replies to that comment saying well it is not fully proven but has a more logical and rational explanation than the idea of a soul. Yes I realize this and I realize there isn't really any evidence of a soul or spirit.

[TeenMachine]

Originally Posted by AngryFemme

There's not much traffic here, but expect a lot of very different responses on this! You managed to cover the mind-body problem, the characteristics God might have (if God exists) and extropy, all rolled up into one post.

Yeah I notice there isn't alot of people round these parts but I don't see why not, I assume cause the majority of totseans are atheist and/or just think discussion with the subject god is pointless or something. I see Discussion such as this not only a learning experience but very interesting and entertaining on its own.

Way I see it, life begins at fertilization. Human-ness begins after maturing for about 20 weeks in the womb. Personhood begins the moment it is born, thus becoming independent of it's mother's tissue. We'll call it Personhood, even though (in my opinion), there is absolutely no reason why a soul (as I'm describing it) couldn't apply to other animals besides us.

The process of life starting at fertilization makes good sense to me but would you say it alive right when it's fertilized? Hmm, well I suppose so would be just not alive in the same way we are?
I don't think a soul is limited to just humans the way you describe or the the different ways I'm thinking of it. Same with "heaven" and animals. I don't actually know if they say in the bible that animals do or don't go to heaven or hell(I'm guessing they don't) but I kinda think they should be included.
Plant have a soul? I think different life forms would have different type of souls or the soul would be built up of something different but still similar,If souls exist. From your description, well they don't have a brain and aren't exactly born but they are multicellular. I think they could have soul with your description but it would not be the same as a human one. So if you define the soul as only being created by a brain then I guess plants wouldn't have souls but what do you think about different types or souls made of different types of energy or matter? Possible?

Could you have a soul without ever having a brain? It seems like consciousness would be a requirement for us to think a creature has a soul. Do animals have souls? Surely! Are they self-aware of it? Good question, but we can't very well tap into qualia other than our own, so we'll never really know. Do plants have souls? Seems highly unlikely, to me. A rabid member of ELF might heartily disagree.

I believe that the soul is in a developmental stage, up until the time Personhood begins. It's created, alright - as a by-product of brain activity. I believe it emerges as the mind emerges, a result of incredibly complex processes - neurons firing and connecting with other neurons in the brain.

The end product is this teeming ball of energy confined to the brain that *created* it. It's where our spirit, in the loosest sense of the word, arises. It's where our minds reside. It's what we feel like we're made of. And self-awareness assures us it's unique to us as individuals.

Soul without a brain? Hmm,if all life had souls regardless of having a brain or not then yes but I'd say it could possible the way you describe it. in your description of the soul-do you think it could be possible to extract the soul or possibly absorb it?Or possibly replace one soul with another?

I think animals could very well have a soul but what about one celled organisms that aren't really considered an animal?and what about a human brain without a soul?Possible? do you think there could there be some kind of defect or glitch causing a soul or this energy to not create or to mutate into something that isn't a normal soul?(from your description of a soul)

our physical body is constantly growing from when life begins.So when the brain grows wouldn't the soul grow with it? if the brain can do more complex actions when its fully developed would that mean the soul would grow more complex also?

If a mother was having identical twins with the same dna and genes, do you think it vould it be possible they would have identical souls?

No wonder somebody down the line dreamt up that God assigned souls, one-by-one, into people upon the moment of conception. It just feels extraordinary to contemplate the most intimate thing we can relate to.

Indeed

From my view - If it's created by the brain, lives as long as the brain does and extinguishes when the brain completely dies, it's not any more "alive" than the cadaver it just occupied. Maybe during the exact moment of death, the energy that was present in the brain leaves the body, and doesn't extinguish completely after all. By that, I mean continues to exist long enough to [insert physicist comment about how useless energy is absorbed by surrounding energy]. By that rote, you can say the soul is infinite, and lives on forever. But are "we" connected to it still? I don't believe we are.

From your view do you think all brains create a soul the same way each time?
I think if our brains did create our soul then they would be unique because of the amount or varying types of "energy", assuming the human brain is already unique when the brain creates or spawns it.
I think damaged(from birth or injury), or abnormal brains(from birth) would have a difference in their soul.
Do you think they would in your description or any others?

I haven't slept yet so I hope there isn't too many errors or comprehension mistakes, if they are, I apologize

[AngryFemme]

Originally Posted by TeenMachine

Yeah I notice there isn't alot of people round these parts but I don't see why not, I assume cause the majority of totseans are atheist and/or just think discussion with the subject god is pointless or something.

For centuries, God has been the given answer to everything we can't fully explain yet. Thanks to great strides in how we comprehend the process of life, that is no longer an acceptable explanation for a lot of people. Science certainly feels it's worth contemplating, if only to find a less complex explanation for it. If someone wants to accept that "God did it" and that answer satisfies their curiosity, then I guess for them, it would seem pointless to discuss alternative explanations.

So if you define the soul as only being created by a brain then I guess plants wouldn't have souls but what do you think about different types or souls made of different types of energy or matter? Possible?

Absolutely. But at some point, we're going to have to let go of the word "soul" to describe it. There's definitely a different process going on in the life-force of plants, but since plants aren't alive in the same sense we are, using such an antiquated term like "soul" is unnecessary.

IMO, we're at a point in time where our understanding of neurological processes makes our concept of the "soul" as we previously knew it to be less ethereal and spiritual and more tethered to the physical.

in your description of the soul-do you think it could be possible to extract the soul or possibly absorb it?Or possibly replace one soul with another?

Well - maybe. Remember, I believe the "soul" is dependent on the brain. Read on Deep Brain Stimulation and you might find it plausible to think that since we can already manipulate the brain as treatment for neurological diseases, eventually science will figure out how to duplicate enough processes in the brain to make someone seem alive. But due to so many people believing that the soul is something that is exclusive to being a God's personal handiwork, it would be highly controversial.

our physical body is constantly growing from when life begins.So when the brain grows wouldn't the soul grow with it? if the brain can do more complex actions when its fully developed would that mean the soul would grow more complex also?

In short: Yes

If a mother was having identical twins with the same dna and genes, do you think it vould it be possible they would have identical souls?

Shoot, I already believe all humans have identical souls, related or not - at least in the sense that it's a common emergent property of the same organ.

From your view do you think all brains create a soul the same way each time?

Yes. I don't believe souls are special or unique.