prophecy

[lawst_kos]

I was just wondering what many people out there think about prophecies. How do we know that what the prophets in the Bible were talking about were relating to the Messiah or just to themselves. I know that in a lot of places they flat out say that there will be someone born from a virgin or in Jerusalem etc. but what about like in psalms when David would talk about himself and his situation. Then they came true about Jesus as well. ie the casting for lots on His clothing and how He would die(the condition He would be in, no broken bones, pierce in His side, etc.) How did people know before they came true that there would be these things coming true about Jesus and How did they know what they were saying related to Him.

Sorry if I repeated myslef too much I cant find any other way to say it. Just looking for some input.

[Craftian]

Well, the *claim* is that these prophecies come straight from the mouth of God, who should be able to predict these things with some accuracy.

I am of the opinion that it is very easy to make a character in a work of fiction conform to prophecies made centuries before.

[inquisitor_11]

Okay, more plagerism.

There are 61 major OT prophecies concerning the Messiah fulfilled in the person Jesus of Nazareth.

Take 8 prophecy's, that were beyond his control:

1)Place of birth

2)Time of birth

3)Manner of birth

4)Betrayal

5)Manner of death

6)People's reactions

7)Piercing

8)Burial

"We find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power...That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,00)...We find the chance that any one man fullfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10 to the 157th power. This is really a large number and it represents a really small chance..."

-P.W.Stoner, "Science Speaks"

And yet they are fulfilled in one man, according to the biblical accounts anyhow. However they are significant safe guards against Jesus being constructed as the Messiah- i.e. the knowledge of the early readers of the accounts (which is appealed to in several places), and some matters which are attested to in secular sources.

Add to this that OT prophecies all also included prophecy regarding the rest of the world that has already been fulfilled in history e.g. the destruction of Tyre. I dont have the info on those ones at hand at the moment though.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Okay, more plagerism.

There are 61 major OT prophecies concerning the Messiah fulfilled in the person Jesus of Nazareth.

Take 8 prophecy's, that were beyond his control:

1)Place of birth

2)Time of birth

3)Manner of birth

4)Betrayal

5)Manner of death

6)People's reactions

7)Piercing

8)Burial

"We find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power...That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,00)...We find the chance that any one man fullfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10 to the 157th power. This is really a large number and it represents a really small chance..."

-P.W.Stoner, "Science Speaks"

And yet they are fulfilled in one man, according to the biblical accounts anyhow. However they are significant safe guards against Jesus being constructed as the Messiah- i.e. the knowledge of the early readers of the accounts (which is appealed to in several places), and some matters which are attested to in secular sources.

Add to this that OT prophecies all also included prophecy regarding the rest of the world that has already been fulfilled in history e.g. the destruction of Tyre. I dont have the info on those ones at hand at the moment though.

still that possibility of 1

[Craftian]

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

1)Place of birth

2)Time of birth

3)Manner of birth

4)Betrayal

5)Manner of death

6)People's reactions

7)Piercing

8)Burial

For all of these we have only the Bible's word. For 1, 2 ad 3 even the disciples only had Jesus' word.

quote:"We find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power"

I am completely mystified as to how this was calculated.

How do you determine the probability of somebody being betrayed? or being stuck in the side with a spear?

quote:some matters which are attested to in secular sources.

Are you referring to Josephus and Tacitus here?

Because it is fairly certain that references to Jesus' miracles in Josephus were added after it was written by somebody else. Tactitus only refers to the Christians' beliefs, rather than to Jesus himself.

quote:Add to this that OT prophecies all also included prophecy regarding the rest of the world that has already been fulfilled in history e.g. the destruction of Tyre.

That prophecy (I can't remember where it is ATM, sorry) also says that Tyre would never be rebuilt, which is absolutely wrong.

[inquisitor_11]

Re: Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3-21)

"The destiny of Tyre according to the prophet is a place where fishermen would spread their nets. The existence of a small fishing village [There is a city of Tyre today, but it is not the original city, it is built down the coast from the original site of Tyre.] upon the site of the ancient city of Tyre does not mean that the prophecy is not fullfilled, but is the final confirmation that the prophecy was fulfilled. Tyre, the mistress of the seas, the trade and commercial center of the world for centuries, passed away never to rise (re-build) again." - J.C. Beck, The Fall of Tyre According to Ezekiel's Prophecy.

Some other aspects-

Nebuchadnezzer did destroy the old (mainland) city of Tyre

Many nations were against Tyre

Alexander scraped the old site of Tyre clean when he made the causeway out to the island and left "bare rock"

Numerous references, including secular observers, to the spreading of nets.

etc.

Re: Jesus- Its definately a given that the bulk of the information on Jesus' life, and as such whether he was the Messiah is from the apostle's accounts, although the validity of those accounts is a seperate issue. However i do agree, and so does scholarly literature, that it is much easy to make someone appear, in retrospect more fitting to such prophecy. That is the whole nature of literature- that the less factual something becomes (and the greater the time between its occurance and its being recorded) the more fantastic the story becomes. i.e. the Gilgamesh accounts, the apocrypha and the like

For 1, 2 and 3 there was definately more than just Jesus word- there was his family, the people in Nazareth. (including his brother James who was an early church leader) whom i doubt would have been in any hurry to collaberate his story if it were false.

I doubt the Roman records still exist from that census- would they have recorded the names? (i dont know)- its nothing to build a case on though.

Will post the calculations that were used to come to that value.