Freewill and a (hopefully) new idea

[SurahAhriman]

Ok. The basic problem between omniscence and freewill, is that if God knows exactly what is going to happen, then any appearance of choice we have is rendered moot.

What if, instead of knowing exactly what is going to happen, God simply knew every percentage chance of every act that may occur, and every permutation based on what choices are actually made?

For example, in traditional predestination, if you come to an intersection and have the choice of going left or right, God will know with 100% certainty that you are going to go left.

What if, instead, God simply knew that there was a 40% chance you'd decide to go right (based on whatever factors God would know could occur to you at the time of the decision), a 48% chance you'd decide to go left, and a 2% chance you'd stop at that corner and grab lunch at a deli (with a 91% chance of you talking to the cute girl at the counter, a 42% chance of getting her number, and a 3% chance of marrying her and having 2-4 kids, barring the 8% chance she'll get hit by a bus nect tuesday.)

Would that satisfy both freewill and omniscence? God would know the exact chance of you doing something, but the final choice would be up to which synapse fired to make you remember you like the hotdog stand to your left?

[truckfixr]

Sorry, but no. For a being to be omniscient,He/She/It would have to know with 100% certainty what you would choose. If there was any possibility that you were to choose anything other than which was forseen, He/She/It would not be omniscient.

[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 05-10-2006).]

[Rust]

Omniscience has never been used to mean knowledge of probability, so your idea would essentially just be a redefinition of the word omniscience. But while ad-hoc revisions might technically satisfy the problem, the revisions themselves aren't satisfying in the least. Not only does it mean using the term "omniscient" to mean something else entirely, but your revision doesn't satisfy what the problem is often used to point out, namely problems in many religious beliefs, such as the Judeo-Christian denominations - which give their gods certain attributes, of which knowledge of the probability of choices is not among them.

Moreover, since it is in essence a redefinition of the word omniscience, why not simply say that an omniscient being doesn't have to know the future to be omniscient in the first place?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 05-10-2006).]

[bonkers]

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Sorry, but no. For a being to be omniscient,He/She/It would have to know with 100% certainty what you would choose. If there was any possibility that you were to choose anything other than which was forseen, He/She/It would not be omniscient.

Correct.

[SurahAhriman]

Fair 'nuff. It was just a thought, and I figured someone, most likely Rust, would be able to dissect the technicalities of it for me.

[HellzShellz]

God doesn't just know the chances of you doing something, He knew what you were going to do, before you did it, and STILL made a way for you. JESUS is His name. He is The Way, He is The Truth, He is the Light, and the Life. God knows how many hairs you have on your head, and how many you lose when you brush, shower, and sleep.

God knew you were going to smoke pot, have sex before you were married. He knew you were a sinner, you can't shock Him, that's WHY He made a way for you. Not because He knew, but because He knew and HE LOVED YOU. Love is an ACTION. Look at Christ.

God told us how this world would end. Revelations, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and many other prophets of old. He told us the beginning and the end. He said, "I AM the beginning. I AM the end!" It's that simple.

Knowledge requires application to be of any effect. I know that cigarette smoking causes cancer, but until I apply that knowledge, It's done nothing for me, not because it couldn't, but because I DIDN'T ALLOW IT to. Why? Because I [made the decision and] didn't apply what had the potential to profit.

I can boast in my own abilities of how I've taken 4 years of college, but if I haven't done nothing (but brag) with the knowledge I've attained, what has it done to profit? I'll tell you what it's done. It's done ONLY WHAT I'VE allowed it to do. I limited its ability to impact my life. We all, CHRISTIAN OR NOT, limit God's abiity to impact our life. Not because God's limited, but because our understanding is, and frequently we make decisions based off of what we know and don't know, instead of off a promise, or out of faith.

When I was of the world, "good faith" was a term we used when we would share marijuana with another person. What the term descripted was the TRUST (faith)in another persons 'goodness' to return the favor.

God's already done it all though, but now you have to hear and do. Not just hear, but hear and do. Know and apply. Know and act. God knew the world needed Salvation.

John 3:16 FOR (because) God so loved the world, THAT [His love provoked Him to give His only begotten son] WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish, BUT HAVE everlastng life.

"With the heart man believes unto righteousness, With the MOUTH confession is MADE unto salvation."

You can't even be saved without believing AND confessing Jesus as Lord.

Shelly,

Daughter of God!

Hallelujah!

Added: Christian, one thing I've learned as a believer, is that an unbeliever is never going to respect you, or listen to you, if you come at them by JUDGING them.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have NEVER judged an unbeliever for not believing, but I would have answsered their questions, and live what I believed in front of them. The bible says if a man doesn't believe He's already judged, and you're not judge, He is. He says the LIFESTYLE of the righteous reprove the wicked, not the words of those who know it but don't live it. Never expect to be respected by the world anyways. They're not going to NOT cuss in front of you, because you say you're a christian, but they MIGHT if you LIVE what you say you believe. The world killed Jesus, are you better? You have to meet people where they're at too.

I love you all SO SO MUCH!



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 05-10-2006).]

[Aseren]

^Whatever he does with it or not is irrelevant.. and the rest of what you're saying.. if I had to much time on my hands I would take your post apart but most of it is complete and utter bullshit anyway.

[bonkers]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God doesn't just know the chances of you doing something, He knew what you were going to do, before you did it, and STILL made a way for you. JESUS is His name. He is The Way, He is The Truth, He is the Light, and the Life. God knows how many hairs you have on your head, and how many you lose when you brush, shower, and sleep.

God knew you were going to smoke pot, have sex before you were married. He knew you were a sinner, you can't shock Him, that's WHY He made a way for you. Not because He knew, but because He knew and HE LOVED YOU. Love is an ACTION. Look at Christ.

God told us how this world would end. Revelations, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and many other prophets of old. He told us the beginning and the end. He said, "I AM the beginning. I AM the end!" It's that simple.

Knowledge requires application to be of any effect. I know that cigarette smoking causes cancer, but until I apply that knowledge, It's done nothing for me, not because it couldn't, but because I DIDN'T ALLOW IT to. Why? Because I [made the decision and] didn't apply what had the potential to profit.

I can boast in my own abilities of how I've taken 4 years of college, but if I haven't done nothing (but brag) with the knowledge I've attained, what has it done to profit? I'll tell you what it's done. It's done ONLY WHAT I'VE allowed it to do. I limited its ability to impact my life. We all, CHRISTIAN OR NOT, limit God's abiity to impact our life. Not because God's limited, but because our understanding is, and frequently we make decisions based off of what we know and don't know, instead of off a promise, or out of faith.

When I was of the world, "good faith" was a term we used when we would share marijuana with another person. What the term descripted was the TRUST (faith)in another persons 'goodness' to return the favor.

God's already done it all though, but now you have to hear and do. Not just hear, but hear and do. Know and apply. Know and act. God knew the world needed Salvation.

John 3:16 FOR (because) God so loved the world, THAT [His love provoked Him to give His only begotten son] WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish, BUT HAVE everlastng life.

"With the heart man believes unto righteousness, With the MOUTH confession is MADE unto salvation."

You can't even be saved without believing AND confessing Jesus as Lord.

Shelly,

Daughter of God!

Hallelujah!

Added: Christian, one thing I've learned as a believer, is that an unbeliever is never going to respect you, or listen to you, if you come at them by JUDGING them.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have NEVER judged an unbeliever for not believing, but I would have answsered their questions, and live what I believed in front of them. The bible says if a man doesn't believe He's already judged, and you're not judge, He is. He says the LIFESTYLE of the righteous reprove the wicked, not the words of those who know it but don't live it. Never expect to be respected by the world anyways. They're not going to NOT cuss in front of you, because you say you're a christian, but they MIGHT if you LIVE what you say you believe. The world killed Jesus, are you better? You have to meet people where they're at too.

I love you all SO SO MUCH!

Wow, god doesn't exist.

[copacetic jerk]

Its awesome you have enough free time to think the big thoughts.

Fucking call your uncle or im telling him what you havent been doing for the past year.