God and suffering

[john_deer]

After several months of not coming on to My God Can beat the shit out of your god, I came back and noticed everyone is talking about the problem of evil and that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent yet doing nothing about suffering.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they question God as their ruler and the almighty. Therefore they brought up the question "Does god have the right to tell us good and bad?"

Sure when Adam and Eve sinned he could've forced them to do what is right or killed them and started again. But he gave us free will, and would forcing us to do something against our will let us enjoy life like he originally wanted? Also what would have happened if he killed them and the devil and started over? What would all the angels and future "subjects" think if they found out?

So God let Humans and the devil have their course of rebellion in order to show everyone that his way is the best. Over the years man has tried many many forms of government and self rule but nothing has worked out and has resulting in sickness, death, 2 world wars, many genocides, etc. (Ecclesiatics 8:9)

In conclusion look up daniel 2:44, then pslams 37:10,11 and Rev. 21:1-4.

Discuss

[Lamabot]

Postulation 1 God is omniscient - he knows everything including what happened, what is happening and what is happening.

Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take, therefore the future is set and fate exists.

Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made.

Conclusion 1 - A lack of choice in one's life and the existence of fate cannot exists along with free will.

Conclusion 2 drawn from 1 - Omniscience, fate and free will cannot exist.

Solution 1 - God is not completely omniscient

Solution 2 - Humans have no free will

Solution 3 - God does not exist

[Merlinman2005]

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Postulation 1 God is omniscient - he knows everything including what happened, what is happening and what is happening.

Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take, therefore the future is set and fate exists.

Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made.

Conclusion 1 - A lack of choice in one's life and the existence of fate cannot exists along with free will.

Conclusion 2 drawn from 1 - Omniscience, fate and free will cannot exist.

Solution 1 - God is not completely omniscient

Solution 2 - Humans have no free will

Solution 3 - God does not exist

No

No

No

Like you said

"Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take"

Key word: Personal.

God does not make the decisions for us. Though He supposedly knows what we'll do, that doesn't mean we lack free will. No way, no how.

"Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made."

Yes. Made by THE HUMAN. So what's the problem?

[Rizzo in a box]

The material world is made by the Demiurge, an ignorant being, and thusly all suffering (see: sin, evil) is merely a result of ignorance. The solution is knowledge, or Gnosis.

The only one that creates suffering is YOU, by allowing yourself to stay trapped in this physical world. Desire breeds suffering. Transcend the physical world.

Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge (a mushroom) was the best thing that has happened in a while.



[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 01-09-2007).]

[Lamabot]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:



No

No

No

Like you said

"Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take"

Key word: Personal.

God does not make the decisions for us. Though He supposedly knows what we'll do, that doesn't mean we lack free will. No way, no how.

"Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made."

Yes. Made by THE HUMAN. So what's the problem?

Except for the part that the human has not made this choice.

[Merlinman2005]

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Except for the part that the human has not made this choice.

Then refine your false postulates to convey this false view.

Don't say He knows what choice we will make, then say we don't make choices. Derr.

[Lamabot]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Then refine your false postulates to convey this false view.

Don't say He knows what choice we will make, then say we don't make choices. Derr.

My point is this: you will be a chemist. You didn't make this choice yet, but you will be a chemist. Nothing you can do will stop you from being a chemist. Your fate is to be a chemist. You think you will chose to be a chemist, but you are predetermined to be a chemist. Oh wait...free will...right...

[Merlinman2005]

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

My point is this: you will be a chemist. You didn't make this choice yet, but you will be a chemist. Nothing you can do will stop you from being a chemist. Your fate is to be a chemist. You think you will chose to be a chemist, but you are predetermined to be a chemist. Oh wait...free will...right...

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.

[Lamabot]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.

You will be a chemist, no matter what. That is not free will

[Rizzo in a box]

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

You will be a chemist, no matter what. That is not free will

Not exactly.

Think about it like this: there are an infinite number of possible universes where you do an infinite number of things. You don't choose what you do, you merely choose which universe you inhabit. Thus, there is both free will and determinism.