The Arrogance of Christianity

[WritingANovel]

Originally Posted by vazilizaitsev89

as much as I hate quoting marx, he said it best "religion is the opiate of the masses"

Religion has its functions in a society. As much bad as it's purported to have done, it's also done a lot of good (probably enough to offset the bad).

I don't know what was going on in Marx' mind when he uttered that. But if I were to guess, I believe he was alluding to the fact that Christianity quiets the common people down so that they are content with their lot in life, and as such won't rise up against the elites/ruling class?

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

"If the shoe fits...."

Not to be rude but you remind me of Slave of the Beast.

I would highly recommend that you try and have a point in your next post.

[WritingANovel]

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

What's wrong is that that seemingly innocent affects us in several profound ways. That belief in paradise is the very definition of a bigoted, partisan farce. What, those who don't believe get to burn?? O RLY?

What's it to you that some people want to believe in a paradise/heaven? Furthermore, what's it to you that they claim non-believers will burn in hell? If it bothers you that much, why don't you just walk away?

Also I would probably avoid saying things like "o rly" in the more serious forums.

As much good as the Christian religion has created, it has been used for extremely dire purposes.

What are these dire purposes you speak of?

Once the Roman Empire collapsed, the Catholic Church established an absolute stranglehold over European society. ABSOLUTE. For an entire Millennium. The governing authority of Christianity has manipulated the blind faith of the common people to extract money, power, and even their lives.

1. Assuming what you are claiming (the manipulating to get money part) is true, I should think that not all of the priests/church authority, whatever its called involved were like that. I have read a few stories of saints/saintly people.

2. You are confusing practitioners of Christianity with Christianity itself.

And if Jesus didn't exist, that's exactly what he is, a symbol. A fucking SYMBOL. I'd love to hear how people need symbols, though. If you intend to argue a lack of secular ethics, please see Zay's thread in My God.

Assuming that Jesus (as described by the Bible) didn't exist:

He, or what he symbolized, shows people "the way to be", for a lack of better phrase. Europeans followed his teachings for many many years and as a result had enjoyed reasonably stable societies.

[dagnabitt]

My God...

[Yggdrasil]

Originally Posted by WritingANovel

What's it to you that some people want to believe in a paradise/heaven? Furthermore, what's it to you that they claim non-believers will burn in hell? If it bothers you that much, why don't you just walk away?

WAN, people do great things, terrible things, in the name of God, or of their religion. They impose they views unto others, they will exclude others out of society for not agreeing with them, they even go to war over this.

Originally Posted by WritingANovel

What are these dire purposes you speak of?

[See_above]

Originally Posted by WritingANovel

1. Assuming what you are claiming (the manipulating to get money part) is true, I should think that not all of the priests/church authority, whatever its called involved were like that. I have read a few stories of saints/saintly people.

The money part is absolutely true, WAN. Hell, I even remember my Catholic history teacher talk about this. Every Christian fief, duchy, kingdom and empire in Europe paid a 10% tribute to the Catholic Pope in Rome up to the Protestant Reformation. You think Catherine of Aragón was the only reason King Henry VIII broke with the Church?

Of course not all the priests were evil. They actually served good purposes during that time, such as the preserving of written language, and providing us with a system of musical notation. But the very core of the Church, the Oligarchy, if you will, was indeed very corrupt. Not only were they arguably the richest and most powerful men in the world, but they didn't even follow their own doctrines, they were repressive, and they were power-hungry.

Originally Posted by WritingANovel

He, or what he symbolized, shows people "the way to be", for a lack of better phrase. Europeans followed his teachings for many many years and as a result had enjoyed reasonably stable societies.

No, not this argument, WAN. Zay has already discussed secular ethics in another thread, and I'm not up for that. Back in those days, however, the funny thing is that almost the rest of the world was more advanced than Europe, and guess what, they weren't Christians.

At this time, Europe was extremely backwards. Technology was lost after the fall of the Romans, and it took 1000 years to catch up, thanks to a stranglehold by the Church. However, "pagan" Mayans in the Yucatan were already mapping the heavens, the Indians in the sub-continent were building Empires, and the Chinese were already shooting off guns, for god's sake. Guess the odd ones out...

[PastorSehmish]

Greetings heathens,

Simply put there is a God and you can choose to believe Him or choose to deny Him. The mere fact this is such a hot topic is evidence that the Lord is trying to reach out to everybody on the face of the earth. You are asking yourselves these questions because God is putting the in your heart - he wants you to make a choice. He want's you to choose him; but will you? The God of the Bible is real. The God of the Bible's prophecies come to pass (Ezekiel 4:3-6 was fulfilled in 1948 - accurate to the very year). And most importantly, Jesus was real. The wages of sin is death, but Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins once and for all.

Will you accept this gift of salvation and forgiveness? All you must do is believe on him and accept him as your savior and you will go to heaven when you die.

God bless,
Dr Pastor Emeritus Wayne Sehimsh

[Yggdrasil]

I'll be lukewarm to take you seriously at first, because the trolling here is incessant.

In the case that you are in fact a minister, good on you. I do not want to get into a heated theological debate with you, because there is a plethora of information that we can both fling at each other, and I'm not up for that. If anything, I, and all other interested posters, are welcomed to discuss faith and theology in piecemeal, because uprooting a whole plant in one large heave is too much of an effort.

Now there are several points I would like to talk about. You state that there is great discussion among this topic, and that such discussion is auspicious. Auspicious indeed! It shows that many more people are thinking for themselves, and offering a critical analysis to their everyday lives. To what conclusions they reach; that is not my prerogative.

Now, I opened my bible to Ezekiel, and read the passages, yet I see no evidence of prediction. And if there is such, it is extremely vague. If you are alluding to the formation of the state of Israel, I will be glad to inform you that, right now, the Palestinians are asking for their land back, and not too nicely.

Now, assuming Jesus existed, what is it about him redeem the sins of the world? Is it the fact that he suffered by being nailed onto a cross? Because I can tell you, many, many more people have experienced greater pain, and for less reason. Take for example those poor German girls from about a month ago.

They're born, and they were kept locked up in a basement of 27 years. They never left. And their father raped them. Daily. He even fathered 9 malformed children with them. He beat them, they were filthy, all of them. I think it is fair to say that they have been through greater pain that being nailed. Am I to worship them because they have been through pain and innocent?

Secondly, I discuss the topic of a historical Jesus right hear in my thread. Before you go about declaring the new Testament as the absolute and infallible word of God, read my posts. You'll see the irony.

Then you offer me the gift of "salvation and forgiveness", and a free ticket to Heaven. As nice as it'd be to be up amongst the clouds, angels, and deceased loved ones, what are the consequences of refusal? Do I writhe, twist, moan, agonize, burn and suffer for all eternity? Well, bub, there's a thousand other religions out there with as tall a tale as yours, and apparently, you're up for the fryin' booth too.

[PastorSehmish]

Indeed most of your points are quite true, and do not require any further comment.

I am assuming when you say "assuming Jesus existed" you mean Jesus as the son of God, as there is ample historical evidence that he did actually exist. All religious opinions aside, to deny the existence of the person we know as Jesus (whatever you consider him to be) is truly foolish.

While I would prefer to discuss the prophecy of Ezekiel in another thread, the issue of how only Jesus was able to die for our sins is in a way complicated. Simply put though in both the old and new testaments, it was God who provided the sacrifice. God provided Jesus to pay for our sins, as he was sinless.

The sacrifice must take the place of sinful man: Sin and guilt was imputed to Jesus. As the wages of sin is death, he had to die for us. But as our sin was imputed to him, he has taken that punishment upon himself, for people past, present and future. Praise the Lord!

I'm glad I could enlighten you.

God bless,
Dr Pastor Emeritus Wayne Sehmish

[countdown2chaos]

Originally Posted by PastorSehmish

Greetings heathens,

And most importantly, Jesus was real. The wages of sin is death, but Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins once and for all.

Will you accept this gift of salvation and forgiveness? All you must do is believe on him and accept him as your savior and you will go to heaven when you die.

So I can do whatever the heck I want because someone died 2000 years ago and I'm not responsible for my own actions? But the second before I die I can say hey Jesus, you saved me.And I'm in pearly white clouds and golden gates forever?
And if I don't am I going to rot in Hell no matter my actions on Earth? Heck, I might as well believe "Jesus you saved me" and shoot myself, why live on Earth when I can just die and live in "heaven?"
Dogma fails.

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by PastorSehmish

Indeed most of your points are quite true, and do not require any further comment.

I am assuming when you say "assuming Jesus existed" you mean Jesus as the son of God, as there is ample historical evidence that he did actually exist. All religious opinions aside, to deny the existence of the person we know as Jesus (whatever you consider him to be) is truly foolish.

While I would prefer to discuss the prophecy of Ezekiel in another thread, the issue of how only Jesus was able to die for our sins is in a way complicated. Simply put though in both the old and new testaments, it was God who provided the sacrifice. God provided Jesus to pay for our sins, as he was sinless.

The sacrifice must take the place of sinful man: Sin and guilt was imputed to Jesus. As the wages of sin is death, he had to die for us. But as our sin was imputed to him, he has taken that punishment upon himself, for people past, present and future. Praise the Lord!

I'm glad I could enlighten you.

God bless,
Dr Pastor Emeritus Wayne Sehmish

If Christ took only the wage of death from our sins, then we would no longer die. The cup that God gave Christ to drink was not that of physical death, but the full and infinite burden of God's wrath against sin. Rather than destroying every last of His creation; He took the burden of wrath upon HIMSELF as He, the Almighty, is the only One mighty and righteous enough to endure His own perfect wrath. This is why Christ proclaims being abandoned by God at his time of death - all presence of God was taken from Him; God turned His back upon Himself in wrath and smote Christ, not just in flesh, but in spirit too. His avatar was completely devoured and three days later reformed. Christ did not just die those three days; He was subjected to the entirety of Wrath so that man would be spared that judgment; so that the faithful may find heaven, and that the haters of God may be smote from existence in Hellfire rather than subjected to eternal wrath in the knowledge of their folly.

Perhaps something to consider; it has certainly deepened my own faith to understand this.

[Europa]

I feel the following is relevant to this thread:

Harmony is only in following the Way.

The Way is without form or quality,
But expresses all forms and qualities;
The Way is hidden and implicate,
But expresses all of nature;
The Way is unchanging,
But expresses all motion.

Beneath sensation and memory
The Way is the source of all the world.
How can I understand the source of the world?
By accepting.



Accept and you become whole,
Bend and you straighten,
Empty and you fill,
Decay and you renew,
Want and you acquire,
Fulfill and you become confused.

The sage accepts the world
As the world accepts the Way;
He does not display himself, so is clearly seen,
Does not justify himself, so is recognized,
Does not boast, so is credited,
Does not pride himself, so endures,
Does not contend, so none contend against him.

The ancients said, "Accept and you become whole",
Once whole, the world is as your home.