No one knows for sure whats up.So be AGNOSTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rust]

"Yeah. And maybe it's all just a dream/we are coma patience in a hospital ward/ ad infinitum. I never did like solipsism myself. If anything comes along to demonstrate that we don't exist in reality here, I'll have to seriously consider it. Until then, such notions are only mental masturbation excercises."

Tell that to Descartes.

Plus, you can't demostrate you dont't exist:

"Cogito ergo sum"

[Dark_Magneto]

Noone can demonstrate that they don't exist because they would have to exist to demonstrate it.

That's one thing I never got about nihilism. Even being able to incorporate a nihilistic worldview requires that the person be exposed to the view, consider it, and choose to accept it.

If nothing existed, the idea of nihilism itself wouldn't be possible.

[Rust]

"Noone can demonstrate that they don't exist because they would have to exist to demonstrate it."

I agree 100%, thats why I said: "Cogito ergo sum", I think, therefore I am.

But, you can't demostrate without reasonable doubt that everything else does exist, thats what Descartes said.

[Dark_Magneto]

Well, the brain works by incorporating external data and rearranging it. Everything you have ever thought of or concieved is something you have been exposed to or otherwise recieved sensory input of previously in some form.

If there really was nothing other than the human mind, it would be like a computer which could only keep the system running and do nothing else. You would be incapable of thought.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-24-2003).]

[Rust]

"Well, the brain works by incorporating external data and rearranging it. Everything you have ever thought of or concieved is something you have been exposed to or otherwise recieved sensory input of previously in some form."

Existing has nothing to do with the brain. How do you know that the brain is what makes you think, and not some type of consciousness?

Even so, your mind, can create impulses of its own, which do not come from the senses, or anything real for that mater.

"If there really was nothing other than the human mind, it would be like a computer which could only keep the system running and do nothing else. You would be incapable of thought."



Have you read Rene Descartes?

He is known for doubting "everything", that’s how he discovered the Cogito (Cogito ergo Sum). The only thing you cannot doubt. The Cogito remains one of the most important discoveries of Western Philosophy.

Lets put it this way, you could be fooled to believe that you have (don’t have) legs or that you are (aren't) touching something, but you cannot be fooled about your existence.

[Dark_Magneto]

That's why I employ a good ol' fashioned Occam's razor.

Cuts out all that shit.

[Rust]

Well if you think what he said is shit, then you might as well think all Philosophy is shit, after all he is the father of Modern Philosophy, and his discovery of the Cogito marked the end of Scholasticism and the start of Modern Philosophy.



Also why use this fictitious razor, when you can use a witty remark?

[Dark_Magneto]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well if you think what he said is shit,

It was a figure of speech. I was referring to excess. The simplest explanation is that we have legs in that scenario. Sure, they could all be products of some highly sophisticated virtual reality dreamworld, but lets not get caught up in ad-hoc rationalizations and use the simple naturalistic ones first, working our way up.

quote:

...then you might as well think all Philosophy is shit, after all he is the father of Modern Philosophy, and his discovery of the Cogito marked the end of Scholasticism and the start of Modern Philosophy.

I like philosophy from a theoretical standpoint, but when it comes to real-world application, a lot of it doesn't fare too well.



[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-27-2003).]

[Rust]

"The simplest explanation is that we have legs in that scenario"

Following this point of view, then believing in God is the simplest explanation. Seeing as evolution, the big bang, and Science it self, is very complex.

Simple is relative, what's simple to you is complex so someone else.

Even so, why is it more simplistic, because you THINK you were born with legs? Because you THINK you even have legs?

Some people THINK there is a God, so there must be one.

[Dark_Magneto]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

"The simplest explanation is that we have legs in that scenario"

Following this point of view, then believing in God is the simplest explanation. Seeing as evolution, the big bang, and Science it self, is very complex.

That's rather inconsistent. That follows along the line of "The universe had to have had a creator because it is so complex. God, however, has always existed.". Wouldn't God, being even more complex than the universe, need a designer as well?

Even simpler, one could cut the fat like so:

quote:

Some people THINK there is a God, so there must be one.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-29-2003).]