Who is/was Jesus?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I think I should point out that the Bible is the only evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

Actually, sources have emerged in the relatively recent past that include such historic figures as Josephus mentioning Jesus (Yahoshua ben Joseph) by name. Just thought I'd mention it.

Anyhoo, on to the matter at hand. Jesus was, simply put, a claimant to the messianic throne and a Jewish patriot. When you read through the New Testament and check the facts, you see that a lot of the stuff in there is true, but metaphorical. Like where it says Jesus spent three years in the wilderness - this makes a lot more sense when you consider that the quasi-Christian settlement at Qumran was colloquially known as "the Wilderness", and it took three years to become fully initiated into the group.

Things like the "fisher of men" and "water to wine" stuff are also revealed to be common metaphors for converting new members to the Nazarene movement, not "miracles."

Edit: Marksman, there's no evidence that Jesus ever claimed to be the Son of God in the literal sense; this was a common moniker taken by Jewish rebels of the day. The first person to verifiably mention Jesus' supposed divinity is Paul, and I'd hardly call him trustworthy.

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 08-19-2003).]

[LwaysTired]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by browncloud:

[b]LwaysTired spoketh forth and sayeth:

Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it

Problem: The bible was written from memory 70 years after Jesus disappeared, then it was edited by Constantinople for political gain.

God would not have let men and their poisoned minds just write the bible from memory. God made sure that the bible said exactly what he wanted it to say....period.

[Tyrant]

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I think I should point out that the Bible is the only evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

Any of the other evidence that surfaces from time to time (like the recent ossory of James) is invariably faked.

I'm an atheist, BWT, but that should be irrelevant.

Actually, Jews, Muslims, pagans (neo or otherwise), and Roman historians accept the existence of, and cite interactions with, the man known as Jesus.

At this point, referring to Armed&Angry's reference to a Yahoshua ben Joseph, incites a passage from Edinger's The Christian Archetype: A Jungian Commentary on the Life of Christ. Thus quoth the psychologist:

quote:p. 32-33, on the chapter concerning Nativity:

Although the birth of Christ occurred in Bethlehem, his home town was Nazareth in Galilee. He thus has two cities of origin. This double aspect of his birth leads to the legendary idea that he was twins. Docetism elaborated the notion of a double Jesus - Jesus the human being and Christ the divine spirit that descended on him at baptism, lived through him during his ministry and abandoned him on the cross. The Pistis Sophia recounts a story of Jesus' boyhood in which a phantom spirit comes to Mary asking, "Where is Jesus my brother, that I meet with him?" When they were brought together, "he took thee (Jesus) in his arms and kissed thee, and thou also didst kiss him. Ye became one."(Pistis Sophia, ed. and trans. GRS Mead, p. 101)

According to legend the Messiah will have a double nature:

The later, mainly Cabalistic tradition speaks of two Messiahs, the Messiah ben Joseph (or ben Ephraim) and the Messiah ben David. They were compared to Moses and Aaron, also to two roes, and this is on the authority of the Song of Solomon 4:5: "Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." Messiah ben Joseph is, according to Deuteronomy 32:17, the "firstling of his bullock," and Messiah ben David rides on an ass. Messiah ben Joseph is the first, Messiah ben David the second. Messiah ben Joseph must die in order to "atone with his blood for the children of Yahweh." He will fall in the fight against Gog and Magog, and Armilus will kill him. Armilus is the Anti-Messiah, whom Satan begot on a block of marble. He will be killed by Messiah ben David in his turn. Afterwards, ben David will fetch the new Jerusalem down from heaven and bring ben Joseph back to life. This ben Joseph plays a strange role in later tradition. Tabari, the commentator on the Koran, mentions that the Antichrist will be a king of the Jews, and in Abarbanel's Mashmi'a Yeshu'ah the Messiah ben Joseph actually is the Antichrist. So he is not only characterized as the suffering Messiah in contrast to the victorious one, but is ultimately thought of as his antagonist.

Messiah ben Joseph corresponds to Jesus bron in Nazareth, the personal aspect of the Self. Messiah ben David corresponds to Christ born in Bethlehem, the city of David. He is the son of David the ancestral spirit, the transpersonal aspect of the Self. A parallel image is the Dioscuri Twins, Castor the mortal and Pollux the immortal one.

As far as Jesus the physical man, I recommend Spirit of '22's essay concerning Jesus the Rabbi.

And, out of courtesy for the original request made by jonboyw75, I consider myself an Asatru heathen.

[Tyrant]

Damn, the underlines didn't work... oh well, it was implied.

[DarkFire47]

Jesus was a jew. Therefore muslims would hate him.

[Fuck]

Beany, you read my thoughts once again.

Personally, I'd like to add that he was very misunderstood. He seemed to have thought beyond time and space.

what ever floats your boats dudes, I just think Jesus' laws are is just another way to heaven, there is more than one path

Tyrant, have you ever read a book called "The Hiram Key"? Poorly documented, but fascinating stuff. The authors claim Jesus was just one of two messiahs, the "kingly" or Boaz messiah, while his brother James the Just was the "priestly" or Mishpat messiah. They don't say anything about them being twins, though. However, I do recall that some sects hold that Thomas was Jesus' twin brother. Just a thought.

[UrbnTbone]

quote:Originally posted by DarkFire47:

Jesus was a jew. Therefore muslims would hate him.

Nop! He is one of the saints of Islam, as most Bible characters. The moslims would only hate the Jews who identify with modern-day Israel. Unless Islam really gets dumped into the fundamentalist demon and becomes straightforward antisemitic as a religion.

Note: according to the Bible, any prophet, even supported by miracles and great wonders, calling for one slight change in the order of the Torah, is a false prophet. If anyone believed the Bible is the word of God, they would never believe in any Jesus, or for that

matter, Mohammed. That makes the God of the first of sacred books - a damn liar...

[eBlip]

jesus was primarily a man.....he studied with the rest of the jews as a child ...and had a flare for religion.....

during his teen years and his early manhood jesus was exposed to various kinds of religious phillosophy....the vedas and probably buddhism....

he was an excellent teacher who could relay some of the truths he had uncovered thoroughout his life very well to the masses.

even just before his death....jesus was not a fully enlightened human being .....as he asked the lord or maybe in reality he asked his karma to spare him from certain death...he actually cried about this in the garden of gethsemanie....

it was only when he was nailed to the cross that jesus actually achieved enlightenment.

so he was a man.. born of mary and his father was a roman guard.....

the truth is ...what does it matter that the truth has been warped by various editions of the bible and the jews and just about everyone else...

he was a man i search of enlightenment ...and who apparently achieved this on the day of his death....

you see .... an enlightened being understands reality . ...and in understanding reality you would not fear for yourself or for your life....death would be accepted with a smile rather than a cry for help.