i can see a paradox.

[AnotherN00b]

HatterMaxwell started this thread which got closed by ArmsMerchant because there was no serious reply.

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2184432

i got one that i would like to share.the paradox is this-

if god is omnipotent/omniscient and infallible, then that means everything is predetermined and therefore we were programed from the moment of creation to follow one path. therefore we have no free will.

am i right or wrong.

[truckfixr]

There was no serious reply because this subject has been visited many times already in this forum.

[JesuitArtiste]

Originally Posted by AnotherN00b

HatterMaxwell started this thread which got closed by ArmsMerchant because there was no serious reply.

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2184432

i got one that i would like to share.the paradox is this-

if god is omnipotent/omniscient and infallible, then that means everything is predetermined and therefore we were programed from the moment of creation to follow one path. therefore we have no free will.

am i right or wrong.

I don't see the neccesary relation between god omni-ness and predetermination.

[truckfixr]

Originally Posted by JesuitArtiste

I don't see the neccesary relation between god omni-ness and predetermination.

It's simple, really. For god (or anyone else) to know future events with certainty , said events must be predetermined. If the future is predetermined, free will is merely an illusion, and you have no choice but to do that which was predestined.

Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.

[AnotherN00b]

Originally Posted by truckfixr

There was no serious reply because this subject has been visited many times already in this forum.

well not by me

Originally Posted by truckfixr

It's simple, really. For god (or anyone else) to know future events with certainty , said events must be predetermined. If the future is predetermined, free will is merely an illusion, and you have no choice but to do that which was predestined.

Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.

this

i am genuinely interested in a theists reply to this apparent paradox. if its been discussed before then there must be one

[JesuitArtiste]

Originally Posted by truckfixr

It's simple, really. For god (or anyone else) to know future events with certainty , said events must be predetermined. If the future is predetermined, free will is merely an illusion, and you have no choice but to do that which was predestined.

Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.

It doesn't seem that way to me.


IF, assuming the omni-ness of God, we can do away with this linearity and 'Future'. God being omniscient is aware of all time in a single moment, God is not bound to time, because God is omnipotent, it is possible for him to be outside of time. There is no future, and no past to God, there can only be now.

Assuming this, God does not know events before they happen, but AS they happen. God knows what we do only because to his perspective we are in the process of doing, he does not see things as having been done, because he has no past, there is no sense of things to be done, because he has no future, there is only things as they happen.

Not sure if that's clear.

Either way, I think it entirely possible for God to know what we do, and for it not to hamper our free-will.

That said, I don't really think we have much free-will, but that has little to do with God and more to do with stuff.

[---Beany---]

Originally Posted by JesuitArtiste

That said, I don't really think we have much free-will, but that has little to do with God and more to do with stuff.

I believe you:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uE6Z1nBqLwo

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by JesuitArtiste

Either way, I think it entirely possible for God to know what we do, and for it not to hamper our free-will.

That said, I don't really think we have much free-will, but that has little to do with God and more to do with stuff.

I agree with you jesuit, and I think you said it well.

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by JesuitArtiste

I don't see the neccesary relation between god omni-ness and predetermination.

Ditto. OPs statement is a classic non sequitor.

Let's say I know you so well, that I can accurately predict what choices you will make--that in no way robs you of the freedom to make those choices.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by JesuitArtiste

It doesn't seem that way to me.

Your counter-argument ignores the crucial point: It's not god's "timeness" or timelessness (for lack of better words) that causes the problem, it's ours.

He knows that will happen before we are even born. That you want to label him as timeless doesn't change this. To us, the beings whose freewill is being questioned, the event is already set in stone before we are even born.

God being timeless is irrelevant so long as it can be said that future events in our timeline are known.