Genesis: Some questions

[Vanhalla]

So I went to the library the other day and brought home "The Revised English Bible".

Now, I was not brought up on a religious faith of any kind. So I have never read the Bible. Ever since I was a young boy I've always known, there is a vast Universe deep within myself. A mysterious Cosmos that I would spend the rest of my life exploring. Trying to understand what this place really is, and my role in all of it. I've learned a lot in this small amount of time I've been here, through science and mysticism, esoteric contemplation and exoteric ritual, yet lately I've asked myself, "What is the bible?" This one book, of many versions and many interpretations, has had such a profound and awe inspiring impact upon the consciousness of man yet here I am. Unable to answer the question "what is the bible?" because I've never taken the time to read it, to create my own interpretation of this age old text.

I created this thread to gain the wisdom that others have attained during their own examination, their own journey through this book.

Now, I'm going to take this one chapter at a time, and ask questions that will aid me on my quest.

I cannot find the version I got from the library online, but it is close enough.

Genesis: I

6And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

In Hebrew firmament 'raqia' means "limitless expanse". This passage appears to suggest the existence of an aether above the vault (term used in revised English bible), but I didn't find an explanation for what is above the firmament. It couldn't be God because the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

If the Earth is below the 'raqia', then what is above?

[rabbit boy]

Well... we're talking about something that was written down by people over 2,000 years ago, and certainly not the scientific type. So don't be surprised...

Water. Why? The sky is blue, and the rain falls from it. So a rational explanation is that there's a big dome covering the earth (think of those science fiction stories where they have domed cities on the Moon or Mars) and water above that.

And above that is heaven, where God is.

And to show you that I'm not the one that concluded this...

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Thr...edUniverse.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/m.../cosmology.htm
http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/sylla...mmoncosmos.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tll/chap2.html
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1969/JASA3-69Seely.html

All of these except the last has at least one diagram of what they thought the concept might look like. Admittedly they contradict each other, but it's not especially clear from the Bible's description.

[Vanhalla]

Ha, that was helpful, thanks.

[rabbit boy]

Yup. No problem.

[Vanhalla]

God created the heavens and the earth and darkness covered the face of the deep
Let there be light, and the light was good.
Day 1 God separated the light from the darkness.
Day 2 Heaven and earth were meshed together, so he created a vault to separate water from water.
Day 3 Dry land and gathered sea. The earth produced growing things, that produce their own seed and fruit, with each their own kind. It was good.
Day 4 Sun, moon, constellations
Day 5 Created all sea beast of their various kinds, and birds that fly across the vault ‘Be fruitful and increase.’
Day 6 ‘Let the earth bring forth living creatures’
‘Let us make human beings in our image after our likeness. To have dominion over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the cattle, all wild animals on land, and everything that creeps on the earth.’
Be fruitful and increase. It was good.
Day 7 God finished all the work of creation.

Adam and Eve – The story of the heavens and the Earth after there creation
Heaven and earth were created before the first day, then God separated the light from darkness. On day two all the water was together, so he separated the heavens and the earth. On day three dry land, sea, and growing things were created. On the fourth day celestial bodies were produced. On the fifth day sea animals and birds, on the sixth, animals and humans.

In 2:15 – 2:20 Adam is placed in the garden of Eden to look after it and is informed of the tree of knowledge, and is advised not to eat from it. God then forms all wild animals and birds. According to the first chapter, birds were created on the fifth day and man was created on the sixth, after animals were created.

At first glance this appears to be a contradiction, but upon further examination, it is not. Man before the fall is on the higher, less dense and very blissful realm of earth. After the fall, they are clothed in skin and worry and judgement and fear.

Could you fellow totsians give me your interpretation of how man before and after the fall relates to the 7 days of creation ?

[rabbit boy]

Well, first off, it's believed by most secular Bible scholars that the beginning of Genesis describes an empty chaotic ocean, or the void. It is similar to the Enuma Elish, in that God is creating order from chaos. It's believed to have been written around the Babylonian captivity.

That is what we think the originally intended meaning is. However, many religious people interpret "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" as a prequel to the first chapter, rather than a summary. But there are two main things that tell me that's not the case. One is that it specifies the creation of the heavens on the 2nd day. The other is that the poem has a closing line, Genesis 2:4. I think in the NEB and REB (I have the NEB, you have the REB) they have gone ahead and split verse 1:24 this way so that it's more clear. Many other translations, however, include it in the Adam & Eve section of the creation story.

The first chapter is really a poem, like the Enuma Elish, and it has a LOT of symmetry in it. For example, on the first day he created light and separated light from darkness (yes, before the stars and sun were in the sky). This created the necessary environment for the sun, stars, and moon on day 4. On day 2 he created the sky (that solid dome I talked about earlier) and put part of the primeval ocean above it, and part below. Now we have sky and sea, for the birds and fish to live in which were created on day 5. And on day 3 he creates dry land and plants, which support the animals and people on day 6.

It's believed that the second part of the creation story -- about Adam and Eve -- is actually an older story predating the Babylonian Exile (which is when the chapter 1 story was written). When they decided to put them into written form, a redactor wove the two stories together. It wasn't perfect, and you can see how they were probably independent at first. That's why you have those contradictions.

A lot of the Torah was combined from two or more different sources. Particularly the accounts from the northern country of Israel, and the southern country of Judah. This is called the documentary hypothesis. There are certain clues for telling the different ones apart, such as the name(s) they have for God, their level of formality, and that sort of thing.

If you want me to say more on the documentary hypothesis, I have some information from a book that may be helpful. You can also of course find plenty of stuff on the web about it.

http://faculty.hope.edu/bandstra/rtot/

Here's one example website. It's from a liberal Christian point of view. You didnt use to have to register, but now apparently you do.

[ArmsMerchant]

On the seven days thing, seven connotes completion and/or perfection. There are many examples in religious and secular literature as well as popular culture.

Seven deadly sins, seven cardinal virtues, seven days of the week, the seven seas, the seven voyages of Sindbad, the seven dwarves, yadda yadda yadda. Shooting craps, seven comes up most often.

[rabbit boy]

Probably the reason that seven is usually seen that way was originally for astronomical/astrological reasons. The 7 known moving bodies in the sky at the time were: the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. In fact, our 7 modern days of the week are named after these different celestial objects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of...es_of_the_days

It's interesting to note that the Hebrews just numbered the days of the week, though, except for the Sabbath aka day 7. The calendar system with 7 days in a week was probably culturally transmitted to the Hebrews somehow from some of the other nations like the Sumerians or Babylonians -- some of which were avid stargazers.

[Vanhalla]

In chapter five, is there a gematriatic significance to the 930 years that Adam lived?
And the others also.
Does anyone know what happened to Enoch? Maybe he ascended.

In chapter six, the human race is increasing and spreading over the earth, and it calls them the sons of the gods. Does this mean that the descendents of Adam are the gods? And that 6:3 the then modern race is not taped into the spirit of God as strongly as the ancestors were?

Where did the mortals come from?
Are they a race that God created that were not allowed to tap into Gods Spirit?
Or were women mortals, and unable to tap into this flow as strongly?
But that doesn’t really make sense because the Nephilim (giants) should have been mentioned earlier.

I don’t know, I’m confused, I’ll try to figure it out later.

[rabbit boy]

As we go further into Genesis, a lot of this stuff is foggier to me, so please bear with me.

There are a few significant things I know about their ages. First, their extremely long lives resembles the Sumerian King List, except not to quite that degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_king_list

Some of these Sumerian kings supposedly lived tens of thousands of years. From the Wikipedia article, after the first 8 kings there was a flood, and then a new series of kings who only lived for hundreds of years instead of tens of thousands. There are a couple versions of Sumerian and Babylonian flood stories, which strongly resemble the one of Noah and the ark. See this website for an example:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm

I'm certain that there was more than one flood story by the Sumerians and Babylonians, because I remember the names of two different heroes.

Okay, getting back on track. Another important thing about their ages is that they were used by the Jews in the Middle Ages to calculate the supposed beginning of the world, which they base the years of their calendar on. More specifically though, the ages at which they had children.

According to my book, it says they thought the date of creation was October 7, 3761 B.C.

The significance of the different sons of Adam are sometimes explained as representing the development of culture and technology. For example, Cain (Kayin) is a smith, and Tubal-Cain means a smith of Tubal. I believe the scriptures explain some of that stuff. I've heard that Seth's bloodline is actually a copy of Cain's, with some minor differences. So it would be one of several duplicates in the Bible.

The story of Cain and Abel itself is explained as a dispute between the farmers and the nomads (there is a corresponding Sumerian myth for this as well).

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm (see "Inanna prefers the farmer")

Okay, going to Enoch. He's a very interesting character, but a lot of the interesting material isn't in the Bible itself. There's a few things: for example, the Ethiopian book of Enoch. You can read a translation of it online on various sites.

http://exodus2006.com/ENOCH.HTM

This was written sometime after the last officially recognized book of the Old Testament, and before the New Testament. Apparently it was very influential on early Christian thought, and is even mentioned in the book of Jude.

It also expands on the story of the "sons of the gods" that you read about. They are usually thought of as angels, or sometimes fallen angels.

Here's what my book says about Enoch:

The fact that Enoch is described as living 365 years, whereas his father Jared lived 962 years and his son Methuselah lived 969 years, seems odd. Is it a coincidence that there are 365 days in a year; that is, in the complete circuit of the sun across the skies? Is it possible that the verses given over to Enoch are all that remains of some Babylonian sun myth?

What is meant by saying that Enoch walked with God and was not is uncertain, but later traditions made it clear that the usual interpretation was that he was taken up alive into heaven as a reward for unusual piety.

It was supposed by the Jews of post-Exilic times that in heaven, Enoch was able to see the past and future of mankind. Between 200 B.C. and 50 B.C., several books were written purporting to have come from the pen of Enoch, describing this past and future. They are purely legendary and are a form of "religious fiction" which was fairly common in the post-Exilic period. (Some of it, as we shall see, found its way into the Bible.)

Jumping back to the sons of the gods, according to Reading the Old Testament (a site I linked to earlier) they were members of the "divine council." Apparently they thought of heaven like a king's court. I didn't really understand it too well, though.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/gen...n06_01-02.html

This looks good enough for me. It really is a rather cryptic passage. I don't know if they know of a possible origin for why this verse is there, like how some of the other weird stuff came from the Sumerians or Babylonians.

*is tired*