Interview with Frank Varelli, Former FBI Informer
EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH FRANK VARELLI FORMER FBI INFORMER, AND INFILTRATOR OF CISPES.
Q: Did you know of this guideline from the Attorney General that said that
investigations are only permitted when there's a reasonable indication that a
crime is being committed or may be committed?
A: No. I know that a guideline that existed but like I said before, foreign
counter intelligence unit of the FBI doesn't wait for a crime to be committed
before they will go into a group-infiltrate a group and determine if that
group is violent or what. They will go first and later, they will give an
explanation. In every case, all over the country that I was able to recall,
investigations were opened based just on the fact that CISPES was a left-wing
liberal group opposing the Reagan administration. Nobody had at that time, any
reasonable doubt that any crimes were being committed. The groups of CISPES
were penetrated...Were infiltrated just on the assumption that these people
were going to do something in the near future...Mr. Ron Davenport, the head of
the terrorism unit of El Salvador once told me, I don't care what you do but
go and get those guns. And-he was talking that I should go to CISPES and find
guns.
Q: Did you tell him there were no guns?
A: I told him and that was really hard for me. I told him how in the world, I
was going to see guns when there were none...
Q: In 1983, you said that the investigation took a turn to be more aggressive?
Why did they decide they needed to become more aggressive?
A: Because CISPES was speaking at that time in a more aggressive way too. And-
CISPES was bringing out a lot of facts.You know, a lot of the reality of El
Salvador and they were not very happy with that. There were many teletypes
coming from headquarters and guidelines indicating which way to go. And based
on those guidelines and based on those demands that were being put on the
Dallas office...pressure was put on me.
Q: What kind of pressure?
A: Well we moved from a kind of observant position into a position and I was
told that the Bureau wanted to get an apartment. So I could start seducing
this nun that is the head of the CISPES group. Her name is Linda Hay and they
wanted to-
Q: They wanted you to seduce a nun?
A: Yes. Yeah. Because she was the head of CISPES and one of the most outspoken
persons that I've known.
Q: What did they tell you? What did they ask you to do? How did they say that?
A: Well, I explained to them that in one of the meetings, that I've had - at
the beginning of 1983, one of the nuns in an affectionate play, had kissed me
on the cheek...a very innocent brotherly type of you know gesture that I
appreciated very much at that time. And-of course, I told them what happened
and I explained to them the circumstances under which those things-I explained
the circumstances under which those things have happened. Because it was there
in a public gathering in front of everyone and there was no malice involved in
it. But I was reprimanded by special agent, Dan Flanagan and I was told that I
should never forget who my friends are and where my loyalties are supposed to
be and I should always remember who my enemies are. And I was told that since
they liked me so much...Why I didn't start trying to seduce this nun.
Q: And all because she had given you a peck on the cheek?
A: Yes. Yeah. And-and that the Bureau was going to provide an apartment with
cameras and you know...With sound equipment and everything. So we could film
the nun in very compromising position because as Dan Flannigan put it, "Once
we do it, we have her in our hand."...
Q: Did you consider her a dangerous enemy and a terrorist when you wrote this?
A: No. I didn't consider her my enemy nor a terrorist but this was the job
that was set for me. If I would have not presented this report this way, they
would have not received it. They would not have accepted that report. If I
wrote a different report like saying, "Well, according to my standards, she's
not dangerous but according to the Bureau's standards, yes she is." That would
have been thrown out. See, there are two standards. One for outside people and
one for inside according to inside...According to the inside attitude.
According to the frame of mind of the FBI. Yes. This nun is dangerous.
According to the law, of the United States of America, she is not dangerous.
She is only an outspoken person...That it has very deep-rooted convictions of
what she's doing, of what she believes in-and everyone in this country has the
right to say what they want to...
Q: Were you under pressure to make your reports conform to those guidelines?
A: Yes. Because it was assumed from the beginning, they were Communist, they
were terrorist...and that's it. If not, there would have not been any purpose
in me going there. And I have to add, I was never you know, any volunteer
whatsoever to the Bureau.
They came after me. They sought my services because they said that I had
all the qualities to be a good spy. And I had knowledge of the Salvadoran
culture...religion, traditions, language. And that's what they needed. And
they needed a person who would speak English too, that would know theology,
that would know a lot of Marxism, Leninism things. Like in this particular
case that I've pointed out, Sister Linda was knowledgeable about Marxism-
Leninism. Well I've known thousands of people in the United States that can
give you a lecture, entire lecture on Marxism-Leninism. But never Communists
or anything like that.
Q: I want to talk about your activities with the Salvadoran National Guard.
What was your relationship with the Salvadoran National Guard and how did you
get involved with them?
A: My father and the National Guard come a long way. My father was director of
the National Police of El Salvador. He was ambassador of El Salvador to
Guatemala. And of course he had a very successful career in the army of El
Salvador. He holds the rank of colonel.
I knew everyone in the National Guard. And the officers in 1981 were old
friends of mine. The Bureau knew this and they brought it up and we would
discuss how close I was, and Special Agent Dan Flanagan proposed that I should
go to the National Guard and try to establish a direct link with the Bureau
and the National Guard.
The FBI wanted to avoid, wanted to circumvent the normal channels of
intelligence. They wanted to make sure that the information that was being
sent through the CIA and the state department from El Salvador will get here
because they described to me that there was a lot of trouble with the CIA of
not trusting each other.
So I flew to El Salvador in 1981 in April and went directly to the office
of the Colonel. I gave him a business card from a special agent Dan Flanagan
and I told Colonel Cassanovo that I had been authorized by the FBI and the
Justice Department to go and talk to him, that we needed to establish here in
the United States a direct link with their intelligence unit because the
program that the FBI wanted to implement and the Justice Department wanted to
implement and the Reagan administration wanted to implement was to squeeze
Communists from both sides. Get them in El Salvador if possible and get them
here. Either way.
Q: In 1981, there was a lot of death squad activity in El Salvador, right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the role of the National Guard at the time in the death
squads?
A: The National Guard did play and has played a major role in the death squad
activity of El Salvador.
Q: Did the FBI know that when they sent you down there to establish contact?
A: If they did not know at that time, they sure knew it after I returned.
Because I brought death squad lists that had been provided to me by the
National Guard and some that had been prepared right there at the National
Guard just for me to bring.
Q: What do you mean prepared?
A: Well they were typed, you know? There were names, a list of individuals
that were sentenced to death by the right-wing death squad. That supposedly
was made by this group but I actually saw, at least the last page being
prepared there by members of the National Guard.
Q: Well Mr. Varelli, couldn't it have been that the National Guard was
preparing this list of people that they needed to protect because they knew
that they had been targeted by death squads? I mean why do you assume that the
National Guard was preparing this list of people that they were going to kill?
A: Because contrary to what a lot of people have said, the National Guard of
El Salvador...like from the national police of El Salvador... There were death
squads operating you know...Out of...
Q: Inside the National Guard?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you told that FBI that?
A: Yes, I told them.
Q: You came back to the United States and went to the FBI and what happened?
A: I made my report about my meeting with Cassanovo and how he had approved
that we could call straight to the National Guard Intelligence Unit and that
they were going to provide the FBI with any kind of information that was
needed. And also that we could request, we can exchange services, with them. I
presented the different lists of individuals that were included in those death
squad lists and I told them that I believed that there were many innocent
people included in that list because of some personal problem or somebody that
was in charge of preparing the list.
Q: What people?
A: The people in the death squads were very serious and they had already
started killing people. And I told them that they were going to make sure that
they would finish the list. I expressed to them also my desire to clean the
list of all the names of people that I felt were innocent. But I was never
given opportunity to clear the list of all those names of innocent people. But
also, I made a recommendation that people included in that list that were
traveling to the United States, should be warned or if possible, protected
because if elements of the right-wing death squads of El Salvador were living
here in the United States, they were going to make sure that they would finish
that list even here in the United States. So, Flanagan received and passed
along to the entire unit, up to headquarters, to Washington. Come back...
Congratulations... for the trip and everything. But the list was never clear
of the people that were killed.
Q: You had an ongoing relationship from that point on with the National Guard?
A: Yes.
Q: What kinds of things would you talk to them about? What would you tell
them?
A: We would exchange information. We would provide them with names of
individuals that will be traveling to El Salvador...
Q: Americans?
A: Americans, people that were just traveling to visit, religious members,
members of religious orders...Another thing that we would do is in case people
were deported, Salvadoran citizens were being deported, yes, we did call ahead
of time, and we confirm to the Guard that people were being deported from the
United States and that we thought they were terrorists. Sometimes they were
able to get to the airport on time and get some. Sometimes they were not so
successful. Now, I do not know if they ever killed anybody as a result of
those calls, but I wouldn't be surprised either.
Q: You called the National Guard when Salvadoran citizens were being deported
from this country back to El Salvador?
A: Yes.
Q: And told them that these people were-
A: Communists Members of the F.D.R. or F.M.L.N.
Q: Isn't that dangerous to tell the National Guard in the early eighties?
A: Yes. It was. And it still is. It is. But I was-I was only obeying orders.
My orders-
Q: From?
A: From the FBI that came directly from the Attorney General. And even though
I am a citizen-well, I was born in El Salvador, and that is my people, I am an
American citizen above all. And I felt that my responsibilities, you know,
were to my government that had requested my service in a time of need, of
danger, because that's how they present it. So, you know, I was convinced that
I was doing right.
Q: Now, they called you from time to time and asked you for information?
A: Yes,
Q: What kind of information did they ask you?
A: Sometimes if we knew of demonstrations. Remember, there was a big
demonstration on June 12th in New York, and there was a other one in
Washington, if I'm not wrong. And also-of groups involved in - like CISPES,
that were opposing the Reagan Administration. Those names of those individuals
were reported there to El Salvador first so they could put them on file,
second, because they will make that official statement to the press indicating
that there were communists in the United States influencing the United States
Congress and opposing the good policy of President Reagan. Therefore, since
they are even doing that in the United States, then let's kill them here.
Q: Did the National Guard ever ask you for information about specific people?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: Do you remember who?
A: Well, like when Father Roy, I guess you pronounce it [unintelligible]-
Q: Bourgeois?
A: Bourgeois. A member of the Maryknoll order came down to El Salvador and
disappeared. And there was a problem if he had-if he had actually been
kidnapped or killed, or what was going on. He later showed up in the American
Embassy...
Q: Did the National Guard call you up a lot?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: What types of things did they ask you?
A: Background information we had about groups. You see, if for example an
American had traveled to El Salvador, and he was from an organization called
NACLA, North American Council on Latin America, or American Friend Service
Committee, or the Institute for Policy Studies, I will go back to the Bureau
and request background information on those groups. Immediately it will show
up that yes, they've been active in a left wing, and even with communists,
since the sixties, seventies, and all that. There was all that kind of
background information. I would relay that information to the National Guard
so by the time that people arrive in El Salvador they already knew.
Q: Where would you get the information?
A: From the FBI. Of course, there's files there. They're computerized.
Q: Why did you give the National Guard the name of the Coalition for New
Foreign and Military Policy?
A: Because they are also in the files of the FBI, and that's where the
information was obtained from. And the Bureau has it there because the
Coalition for New Foreign and Military Policy has been very outspoken, and
according to FBI records, they are even supported by the Soviets. They claim
to have information that the Soviets are handing money to this organization.
Q: And were Coalition members going to El Salvador?
A: At a certain point in time, people travel from all these organizations, and
from the Coalition, yes. Somebody traveled there. I don't recall at this very
moment who did.
Q: But the Guard called you up or you called them up?
A: Well, if we had knowledge, previous knowledge of the trip, we will
call...
Q: Did you always give addresses and phone numbers for organizations that they
were interested in?
A: No, only the ones that we were more interested that they will keep an eye
on. I mean, if I gave a name following the orders from my superior officers
there in the FBI, that meant that if they will take care of anybody belonging
to that organization down there in El Salvador everyone will be happier here.
When I say "to take care," that is any name or any organization, they belong
to any organization that we had provided the names-if they would take care in
the sense of killing them, it will be better.
Q: Was this the Bureau's attitude?
A: Yes, sir. Through Flanagan, and there are many others that I came in
contact with, said that if the death squads in El Salvador will kill the
communists it will be much better for the United States, because that way it
will save time and headaches, and in a cynical way the taxpayer's money.
Q: Mr. Varelli, excuse me, but it's difficult to believe that agents of the
FBI would say that it would be okay and in fact better than okay if Salvadoran
death squads would kill Americans in El Salvador. That's hard to believe.
A: You see, in that field, in this operation, remember, keep in mind that it's
not Americans, you know, it's not the FBI protecting the country. It's the FBI
protecting themselves and what they believe that they are by law to protect.
They don't care if it's American, Soviet, Africa, whatever. The basic
principle, and I was taught that constantly, is us against them. "Them"
meaning everyone out of the FBI. "Us," everyone inside. And they don't care
color, they don't care about nationality, religious position. And they just
care about, you know, protecting, you know, or carrying out the orders that
they are given. So it doesn't surprise me a bit.
Q: What possible good would it do for the National Guard to have an address in
Washington of this group?
A: Well, we learned that the Guard, National Police, or the death squads from
El Salvador were interested in gathering intelligence, gathering information
on where or who was opposing the aid to El Salvador so they can also carry on
activities here.
Q: What type of activities?
A: Well, bombing, arson, or just plain-
Q: In the United States?
A: In the United States, yes sir. Because there's a large Latin American
community and there's a lot of money, also from the people, you know, that are
willing to pay at this time-
Q: Did anybody from the National Guard or from any organization in El Salvador
tell you that they were prepared to commit arson or break-ins or any kind of
criminal acts inside the United States?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Who told you that?
A: Well, a number of people that I knew live in the Miami area.
Q: Did any officers in the National Guard in El Salvador tell you that?
A: Yes.
Q: How common was it for you to give the National Guard in these phone calls
that you had with them fairly frequently addresses in the United states of
organizations that were opposed to the Reagan administration policy?
A: They received every single organization that might be left-wing or against
the Reagan Administration policies. All the organizations, their names,
addresses, and phone numbers, all of those names were sent to El Salvador. We
gave them to them because it was a reciprocal type of operation that we were
having.
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